In Memorial.....

[chrisy]

It is a matter of history that when Supreme Commander of the Allied Forces, General Dwight Eisenhower,

found the victims of the death camps, he ordered all possible photographs to be taken,

and for the German people from surrounding villages to be ushered through the camps and even made to bury the dead.

He did this because he said in words to this effect:

"Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the track of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened."


In Memorial

This week, the UK removed The Holocaust from its school curriculum because it "offended" the Muslim population which claims it never occurred.

This is a frightening portent of the fear that is gripping the world and how easily each country is giving into it.

It is now more than 60 years after the Second World War in Europe ended.
This e-mail is being sent as a memorial chain, in memory of the
six million Jews,

20 million Russians,

10 million Christians

and 1,900 Catholic priests
who were murdered, massacred, raped, burned, starved and humiliated

while the German and Russia peoples looking the other way!

Now, more than ever, with Iran, among others, claiming the Holocaust to be "a myth,"

it is imperative to make sure the world never forgets.

This e-mail is intended to reach 40 million people worldwide!

Be a link in the memorial chain and help distribute this around the world.





Don't just delete this. It will take a minute to pass this along.



All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke

 

[Alice]

Chris! Is this true...did the UK really remove the holocast from the school's curriculum? Oh please, say it isn't so...

Alice

 

[chrisy]

when I looked into it further it seems that only one school completely banned it the others use their disgression, on whether the pupils are old enough to relate to what went on and what the diverse ratio is in the class. and also if the Teacher is upto making unbias comments on the subject

 

[Alice]

when I looked into it further it seems that only one school completely banned it the others use their disgression, on whether the pupils are old enough to relate to what went on and what the diverse ratio is in the class. and also if the Teacher is upto making unbias comments on the subject

Well, that makes a little more sense.

Alice

 

[Avalon]

May we NEVER forget !
Lest history repeats itself.

 

[Horticattleman]

Hold on Sugar..those liberal rights are coming to a town near you soon.

 

[Frankie]

Shame on you, Chrisy. That's an emotional issue that upsets many people. The least you could have done was check it out before you posted.

So what it amounts to is that teachers can decide if their students are old enough or not to understand/comprehend the deaths of millions of people at the hands of the Nazis? Not that the powers that be folded and gave into Muslim demands?

I've never heard that Muslims refuse to acknowledge the Holocaust, though I know there are Americans that continually deny it. Yes, I know the current president of Iran denies it, but he's one leader in one country. He doesn't speak for the Muslim religion.

However, as an organized propaganda movement, Holocaust "revisionism" took root in 1979 when Willis Carto, founder of Liberty Lobby - the largest anti-Jewish propaganda organization in the United States - incorporated the Institute for Historical Review (IHR). The IHR is a pseudo-academic enterprise in which professors with no credentials in history (for example, the late Revilo P. Oliver was a retired University of Illinois Classics teacher; Robert Faurisson earned a Ph.D. in literature from the University of Lyon; Arthur Butz is an engineer at Northwestern University), writers without formal academic certification (such as David Irving, Henri Roques and Bradley Smith), and career anti-Semites (such as Mark Weber, Ernst Zündel and the late David McCalden) convene to develop new outlets for their anti-Jewish, anti-Israel and, for some, pro, Nazi beliefs.

More at this link:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... enial.html

 

[Ryder]

Hold on Sugar..those liberal rights are coming to a town near you soon.

Correction HCM. I think you meant liberal lefts.

 

[Alice]

Frankie,

I'd never heard of Muslims denying the holocaust, either. I have heard, however, of the skin heads and neo nazis in this country denying it...the miserable excuses for human beings that they are. And, the last I heard, they weren't what would be called liberals by any stretch of the imagination.

Alice

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Frankie,

I'd never heard of Muslims denying the holocaust, either. I have heard, however, of the skin heads and neo nazis in this country denying it...the miserable excuses for human beings that they are. And, the last I heard, they weren't what would be called liberals by any stretch of the imagination.

Alice

As a woman in a predominantly male world, I don't see much difference between fundamentalist christians or fundamentalist muslims

It's not the religion that is the problem, its a lot of the believers!

 

[Horticattleman]

Hold on Sugar..those liberal rights are coming to a town near you soon.

Correction HCM. I think you meant liberal lefts.

I meant rights as in "right to bear arms." etc.

 

[VanC]

As a woman in a predominantly male world, I don't see much difference between fundamentalist christians or fundamentalist muslims

Seriously? Are you saying that women in most Muslim countries have the same rights as women in most Christian countries? Have you ever been required to cover your face in public? Are you threatened with jail or worse if caught walking in public with a man you're not related to? Have you ever been denied a drivers license because you are a woman? Are you allowed to vote?

I've got nothing against Muslims per se, but it's no big secret that most of them look at women as some sort of subspecies whose only purpose is to serve men. Surely you don't believe that of most Christians.

It's not the religion that is the problem, its a lot of the believers!

The same could be said about non believers. Atheists can be just as insistent about shoving their beliefs down my throat, and making me conform to their ways as any bible thumper. I resent anyone who does that, believer or not.

 

[Horticattleman]

:clap:

 

[SmokeStackFarms]

Within the scope of this subject---
I want to highly recommend a book that addresses this.

"In Defense of Israel---John Hagee"
"The Bible's mandate for supporting the Jewish state"

It is newly published, by a Christian minister.
It is a fact that Muslims, and many groups--Christians not to be excluded want to bury the fact of history.
This author draws on the current events in the world and makes a excellent parallel of yesterday's pre-cursors to the present day events that are happening.
Let us forget---the United States had the opportunity to step in the events of the European theater--but declined.(in the 30's)
I pray we do not play ostrich ever again.
I need to stop..

 

[Hippie Rancher]

As a woman in a predominantly male world, I don't see much difference between fundamentalist christians or fundamentalist muslims

Seriously? Are you saying that women in most Muslim countries have the same rights as women in most Christian countries?

Um, I don't see the word "country" in my response. A country is usually a political entity. I spoke of religious fundamentalists and their view/treatment of women, not rights or political boundaries. And just FYI there are plenty of "christian" nations that are pretty darn repressive of women. Muslim countries don't own that show.

Have you ever been required to cover your face in public? Are you threatened with jail or worse if caught walking in public with a man you're not related to? Have you ever been denied a drivers license because you are a woman? Are you allowed to vote?

Have you ever been told it was your fault you were raped?
That you shouldn't be able to make reproductive decisions for yourself? Heck it wasn't too long ago women couldn't vote in this country. We still aren't included specifically in the Constitution. Now I am not comparing the freedoms we do have in the US with the repression in a place like Saudi Arabia, but lets be clear there is plenty of inequality yet to deal with here.

I've got nothing against Muslims per se, but it's no big secret that most of them look at women as some sort of subspecies whose only purpose is to serve men.

I try not to broad-brush ANY group, but you might even try replacing the word Muslim in your quote above with the word "men" ;-)

It's not the religion that is the problem, its a lot of the believers!

The same could be said about non believers. Atheists can be just as insistent about shoving their beliefs down my throat, and making me conform to their ways as any bible thumper. I resent anyone who does that, believer or not.

Hmmm I have never seen that. Odd they would accost you, considering they are in the EXTREME minority in this country. Or does trying to keep religion out of public school and government constitute "shoving their beliefs down my throat, and making me conform to their ways"?

 

[Ryder]

Hold on Sugar..those liberal rights are coming to a town near you soon.

Correction HCM. I think you meant liberal lefts.

I meant rights as in "right to bear arms." etc.

Well, I certainly agree with you on that right.

 

[chrisy]

Shame on you, Chrisy. That's an emotional issue that upsets many people. The least you could have done was check it out before you posted.

So what it amounts to is that teachers can decide if their students are old enough or not to understand/comprehend the deaths of millions of people at the hands of the Nazis? Not that the powers that be folded and gave into Muslim demands?

I've never heard that Muslims refuse to acknowledge the Holocaust, though I know there are Americans that continually deny it. Yes, I know the current president of Iran denies it, but he's one leader in one country. He doesn't speak for the Muslim religion.

However, as an organized propaganda movement, Holocaust "revisionism" took root in 1979 when Willis Carto, founder of Liberty Lobby - the largest anti-Jewish propaganda organization in the United States - incorporated the Institute for Historical Review (IHR). The IHR is a pseudo-academic enterprise in which professors with no credentials in history (for example, the late Revilo P. Oliver was a retired University of Illinois Classics teacher; Robert Faurisson earned a Ph.D. in literature from the University of Lyon; Arthur Butz is an engineer at Northwestern University), writers without formal academic certification (such as David Irving, Henri Roques and Bradley Smith), and career anti-Semites (such as Mark Weber, Ernst Zündel and the late David McCalden) convene to develop new outlets for their anti-Jewish, anti-Israel and, for some, pro, Nazi beliefs.

More at this link:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... enial.html

this is a link into what I was saying about what schools are doing....
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 600686.ece
I went to delete it but as Alice had answered so I couldn't, as I wanted to rephrase what I had been told along with this Newspaper report, it seems it is not being taught in a lot of classes here as we are such a diverse Nation for such a small Country. I think it is part of history and that it should always be remembered. No matter what religion you are, if you are in a Christian Country that teaches this sort of thing, then put up or shut up. If that upsets people then they shouldn't be in that Country. We have freedom of speech and we should be able to speak our minds. Sorry if that makes you mad, but I was when I first recieved this e-mail this morning, and was from a good source a Teacher in fact.

 

[VanC]

As a woman in a predominantly male world, I don't see much difference between fundamentalist christians or fundamentalist muslims

Seriously? Are you saying that women in most Muslim countries have the same rights as women in most Christian countries?

Um, I don't see the word "country" in my response. A country is usually a political entity. I spoke of religious fundamentalists and their view/treatment of women, not rights or political boundaries. And just FYI there are plenty of "christian" nations that are pretty darn repressive of women. Muslim countries don't own that show.

I guess it depends on your definition of "repressive". Please enlighten us as to which Christian countries are "repressive" and what the nature of that "repression" is.

Have you ever been required to cover your face in public? Are you threatened with jail or worse if caught walking in public with a man you're not related to? Have you ever been denied a drivers license because you are a woman? Are you allowed to vote?

Have you ever been told it was your fault you were raped?

No, and I don't know anyone who has. While I've heard of such things, I wasn't aware that it was common. Is there some sort of epidemic of this I should be aware of? Do you know how many rape victims have been told such a thing? If so, how?

That you shouldn't be able to make reproductive decisions for yourself?

I probably shouldn't respond to this because it's such an emotional issue, but I will anyway. ;-) I think abortion, in most cases is wrong, and using flowery phrases like "reproductive freedom" won't change the way I look at it, and it won't change my mind. Does that make me an oppressor?

Heck it wasn't too long ago women couldn't vote in this country.

Eight-seven years is a long time in my book. Are you old enough to have been alive when women weren't allowed to vote? If so, I understand and I apoligize. If not, what's your beef? A wrong was corrected. Is every man alive today, Christian or not, to be held accountable for the sins of past generations?

We still aren't included specifically in the Constitution.

Women are guaranteed the same rights under the Constitution that men are. Why the need for redundancy? What would change?

Now I am not comparing the freedoms we do have in the US with the repression in a place like Saudi Arabia, but lets be clear there is plenty of inequality yet to deal with here.

Yes and, unfortunately, there always will be. But there is no doubt in my mind that things are better than they used to be. I know it sounds lame, but great changes don't happen overnight. Laws are one thing, but it takes time to change hearts and minds. All we can do is keep plowing ahead.

I've got nothing against Muslims per se, but it's no big secret that most of them look at women as some sort of subspecies whose only purpose is to serve men.

I try not to broad-brush ANY group, but you might even try replacing the word Muslim in your quote above with the word "men" ;-)

I'm not sure how to respond to this. I think you were joking. At least I hope so. Surely you don't believe most men oppress women? Even Christian men. The ones I know don't, or maybe since I am an oppressor myself I just can't see it. ;-)

It's not the religion that is the problem, its a lot of the believers!

The same could be said about non believers. Atheists can be just as insistent about shoving their beliefs down my throat, and making me conform to their ways as any bible thumper. I resent anyone who does that, believer or not.

Hmmm I have never seen that. Odd they would accost you, considering they are in the EXTREME minority in this country.

I say live and let live. If someone doesn't believe, or belives in a different way than i do, I've got no problem with that. I've known a lot of fine people who don't believe, and I've known a lot of down right evil people who claim to be Christians or some other religion. The problem I have with some atheists is the same I have with some believers. They just can't leave it at that. It's not enough to have the freedom to live your life as you see fit (within certain necessary boundaries). They feel the need to force others to conform to their ways. You imply that these people are found mostly on the right, or mostly among believers. I say there are found just as often on the left, or among non believers.

Or does trying to keep religion out of public school and government constitute "shoving their beliefs down my throat, and making me conform to their ways"?

Keeping religion out of public schools is one thing. Telling a poor black family that they can't send their child to a Christian school, where they might get a better education, because they don't have the money is another. You do believe in "choice", don't you?
Having a government that doesn't endorse any religion of any kind is one thing. Not allowing ANY religious symbols in ANY public place is another. Since when does the most sensitive person in a community get to set policy for everyone else?

Well, that's it. It's been fun, and even though we disagree, I hope I've done it in a respectful manner. If this thread gets locked, I apoligize for my part in it. Sometimes I just can't help myself.