I think WWIII just started.

[Aaron]

'About 300,000 Tatars live in Crimea and make up a Turkic ethnic minority of 12 per cent in a region where 58 per cent of the population is ethnic Russian.

With the recent shift in political leadership in Kyiv, away from Moscow's influence, Russian soldiers have been marking an X on the doors of Crimean Tatars to identity their homes.' :shock:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/crimea-election-chief-reports-95-vote-to-secede-1.2574719

 

[Stocker Steve]

I think the "X" means the bad guys are coming for you.
There used to be more Tarters, before Uncle Joe sent them to Siberia.

 

[greybeard]

No--WWIII did not just start.

Russian speaking people in Crimea make up only 58% of the voters, with Tartars making up about 12%. The rest are a mix of Ukraine and other nationalities.
Today's vote, according to BBC and Reuter's exit poll surveyors, went like this:
Over 80% of eligible voters (which includes the Tartars) voted. That is much higher than any US election in my lifetime.
93% of all who voted voted in favor of seceding from Ukraine and re-joining the Russian Federation.
Obviously, a LOT more than just the Russian speaking Crimeans voted in favor of leaving Ukraine and joining Russia.
I've read poll results from every news source available and comment from the US, Russia, China, GB, Australia govts, and 1/2 dozen others.
None have alleged coercion or voter fraud.
The Crimean people have spoken.

Next year, Scotland will vote on a referendum regarding independence from Great Britain. Will we see threats of sanctions against the Scots?
I'll bet not.

The people have spoken. If we believe the following for ourselves, then we must no less believe it for ALL men. If we believe it for South Sudan, Tibet, South Korea, Scotland, Mexico, and any number of former "states" or colonies of another nation, then we must accord the same courtesy to each and all.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

It says ALL men, meaning all mankind. It does not say all mankind in the colonies, or all men in North America, or all white men, or all tall men, or all short fat or skinny men --it says ALL men. We either hold these values true or we are Hypocrites. There is no in-between.

 

[Aaron]

No--WWIII did not just start.

Russian speaking people in Crimea make up only 58% of the voters, with Tartars making up about 12%. The rest are a mix of Ukraine and other nationalities.
Today's vote, according to BBC and Reuter's exit poll surveyors, went like this:
Over 80% of eligible voters (which includes the Tartars) voted. That is much higher than any US election in my lifetime.
93% of all who voted voted in favor of seceding from Ukraine and re-joining the Russian Federation.
Obviously, a LOT more than just the Russian speaking Crimeans voted in favor of leaving Ukraine and joining Russia.
I've read poll results from every news source available and comment from the US, Russia, China, GB, Australia govts, and 1/2 dozen others.
None have alleged coercion or voter fraud.
The Crimean people have spoken.

Next year, Scotland will vote on a referendum regarding independence from Great Britain. Will we see threats of sanctions against the Scots?
I'll bet not.

The people have spoken. If we believe the following for ourselves, then we must no less believe it for ALL men. If we believe it for South Sudan, Tibet, South Korea, Scotland, Mexico, and any number of former "states" or colonies of another nation, then we must accord the same courtesy to each and all.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

It says ALL men, meaning all mankind. It does not say all mankind in the colonies, or all men in North America, or all white men, or all tall men, or all short fat or skinny men --it says ALL men. We either hold these values true or we are Hypocrites. There is no in-between.

You can't be serious when you say this. News was reporting this morning of voters doubling up ballots and no action to properly identify voters who had already voted. Voter identity was also being questioned.

I didn't know all the nations you listed had scrutineers at this referendum. Surely to goodness they aren't just taking Russia's word for it. One look on Google News and it seems the rest of the world thinks its a bunch of BS.

 

[greybeard]

If you would be so kind as to point me to a reliable source that corroborates these allegations, I'll give it due consideration.


But one more thing.
Just a few weeks ago, after the protests on the Euromaidan, the full Ukrainian parliament met in Kiev, ousted a duly elected president, and by every account, the walls of that voting place was lined by armed guards loyal to the incoming hierarchy. The vote for impeachment (including votes cast by the Crimean parliament representatives) was unanimous. If there was coercion, it was in that Parliamentary vote, courtesy of the military guards who oversaw that process.

I'm no fan of the Russian bear, ex president Ukraine Prez Viktor Yanukovich or Crimea, but I don't remember anything but international rejoicing when that impeachment took place.

 

[dun]

You can't be serious when you say this. News was reporting this morning of voters doubling up ballots and no action to properly identify voters who had already voted. Voter identity was also being questioned.

Other then the identity being questioned it sounds like chicago politics

 

[Aaron]

'Ukrainian authorities had information from Crimea about voting irregularities, including people who are not Crimean citizens casting ballots, the absence of proper monitoring and the presence of armed men.'

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/16/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/

' local media reported instances of voter fraud.

There were also reports of pressure on voters and journalists. Tatyana Tkachenko, a native-Russian freelance reporter from Cyprus, was held at gunpoint and arrested after a local defense squad stormed the apartment of a pro-Ukrainian activist she was interviewing in Sevastopol.

"I was thrown to the floor and they held a gun to my temple. It was very cold," she told USA TODAY. "They questioned me until 4 in the morning and threatened to jail me for espionage. Then they let me go without any explanation."'

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/16/crimea-referendum-ukraine-russia/6484251/

Throughout the day, journalists questioned electoral committee head Mikhail Malyshev about alleged referendum violations. These included Russian citizens being allowed to vote, ballots being printed on ordinary office paper, journalists being denied access to polling stations and the presence of armed or uniformed men outside stations.

If respected international election observers had been allowed to watch the vote on whether Crimea should to join Russia or merely gain greater autonomy from Ukraine, they would have found plenty to criticize. Violations could be spotted everywhere.

After polls closed at 8 p.m., more signs of trouble surfaced, with Kyiv Post and even Russian journalists aggressively barred from watching the vote count in one polling station in central Simferopol. Police smashed a TV camera of a Russian crew. "We just wanted to see the vote count, but they called us provocateurs and pushed us away," said Ekaterina Vinokurova of znak.com, crying.

Yevheny Bontman, a journalist with Echo Moskvy, said he saw many people were supporting Russia and weated to "confirm the vote count, but they pushed me away," Bontman said. "We don't have things like this in Russia."

The lone observer at the polling station said Crimean election officials had every right to ban everyone from the vote count except for those people actually conducting it, a violation of democratic election principles.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...vernment-declares-it-illegitimate-339523.html

 

[greybeard]

I don't really know how to say this............but.....
A Kiev newspaper account of the election in Crimea??
Kiev--the capitol of Ukraine? A Ukraine that desperately wanted this election to not take place?
Hardly a reputable and unbiased source.
I'll take Reuters and BBC's account over that any day.

The CNN link you posted also said this:

The United States has already said it expects the Black Sea peninsula's majority ethnic Russian population to vote in favor of joining Russia. Moscow has strongly backed the referendum.
Mikhail Malyshev, the head of the Crimean Election Commission, said there was no information that people with foreign passports were voting in the referendum. He also said no "provocations" had been reported at polling stations.
CNN analyst and Russian journalist Vladimir Pozner similarly stressed that Sunday's vote was in no way staged.
"When you look at the celebrations, you can't doubt that these people really are very happy," he said.

Both Crimea parliament members and Putin invited 3rd party election observers from the US, France, Switzerland, and Germany in to monitor the referendum. All refused.
The election outcome was predictable--Russian speaking Crimeans are the majority, but the possibility of fraud was not why the West refused to send observers. The West views the election itself illegal and thought them sending observers would give the election a sense of legitimacy, so they refused to send anyone.
Oddly, the West didn't think that, when South Sudan voted to separate itself from the rest of Sudan. They also didn't think the voting in Ukraine's Parliament a few weeks ago was anything but a great occasion for celebration. So, what's REALLY going on here?
Have you EVER heard of a legislative body voting unanimously for impeachment of a duly elected leader? I have not.

 

[Aaron]

If your willing to believe that the Crimea vote was fair and free of fraud, then I am willing to believe the ousting of Yanukovich was the unanimous voice of all in the Ukraine Parliament.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

WWIII will start when the Queen tries to invade Southern Ireland, and Scotland. All heck will break lose after that!
:lol:

 

[greybeard]

I'm not the only one believing it, tho I was not there. I'm sure there was some irregularities, just as there have been here in US elections, but.......

Record-breaking turnout, international observers report, RT TV reported.
Most of them told RT that the referendum is credible and the vote of the Crimean people should be respected.
Another observer, Ewald Stadler, member of the European Parliament, dispelled the “referendum at gunpoint” myth, by saying he felt people were free to make their choice.
"The lines are very long, the turnout is big indeed,” a member of the international observer mission, Bulgarian parliament member Pavel Chernev, said. "Organisation and procedures are 100 percent in line with the European standards," he added.
135 international observers have arrived from 23 countries, including Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Latvia and Poland, Crimean authorities said. Among those monitoring the referendum are members of the EU and national European parliaments, international law experts and human rights activists.

No violations at the Crimea referendum have been reported by the international observers currently present in the republic.

“It’s all quiet so far,” Mateus Psikorkski, the leader of the European observers’ mission and Polish MP told Itar-Tass. “Our observers have not registered any violations of voting rules.”

Another observer, Ewald Stadler, member of the European Parliament, dispelled the “referendum at gunpoint” myth, by saying he felt people were free to make their choice.

“I haven’t seen anything even resembling pressure,” he said. “People themselves want to have their say.”

Many were impressed by the turnout, which appeared to be so high as to have people stand in lines to get to the ballot box in the morning. The turnout for the referendum in Crimea at 17.00 local time (15.00 GMT) was 70 per cent, the referendum’s website said.

"The lines are very long, the turnout is big indeed,” a member of the international observer mission, Bulgarian parliament member Pavel Chernev, said. "Organization and procedures are 100 percent in line with the European standards," he added.

135 international observers have arrived from 23 countries, including Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Latvia and Poland, Crimean authorities said. Among those monitoring the referendum are members of the EU and national European parliaments, international law experts and human rights activists.

And
Serbian observer:
[youtube]5zZjpQZLkMY[/youtube]
Bulgarian observer:
[youtube]QyB6UKBJZSM[/youtube]

 

[Caustic Burno]

GB we don't have a very good tract record on following that piece of paper you quoted.
We had 13 states vote to cede and were invaded for it. The view depends on which empire is looking down
its nose. The way I see it is none of our business.

 

[dun]

The way I see it is none of our business.

There is no earthly (or solar system) way I could agree more!

 

[Shanghai]

The way I see it is none of our business.

There is no earthly (or solar system) way I could agree more!

The Russians and Putin feel the same
The US and potus are a joke in their eyes

Nothing more than a little yapping lap dog belonging to an old bankrupt family that the children squandered away on drugs and immoral behavior

 

[greybeard]

I fully agree it's none of our business.
It's between the Crimean people and who ever they wish to align with. Everyone else should butt out.
That, is what self determination means.

 

[Shanghai]

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-turn-u-rad ... ector.html

 

[john250]

Best case scenario is this is just a reboot of the "cold" war. Putin is on record that the breakup of the USSR was a tragedy. Putin is a dictator with vast ambitions. The referendum in Crimea was a sham. What next?

 

[Stocker Steve]

Best case scenario is this is just a reboot of the "cold" war. Putin is on record that the breakup of the USSR was a tragedy. Putin is a dictator with vast ambitions. The referendum in Crimea was a sham. What next?

Russia is a corrupt gangster state. They got part of Georgia, part of the Ukraine, and they are now looking at other locations that have more than 2 people of Russian decent. South Carolina could be next. :nod:

The root issue here is that the Ukraine is a failed state created by lines on a map and many of the current residents do not want to be part of.

 

[Dega Moo]

Did the US not sign a treaty to protect Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up their nuclear weapons? What are the ramifications of ignoring or honoring that obligation? Or is that not an obligation?

Crimea appears somewhat a special case from the rest of Ukraine. What if there's an invasion of Ukraine? Does that change any positions?

 

[greybeard]

An invasion of Ukraine proper (other than the troop allowances allowed by Crimea to be IN Crimea) would be a game changer, but it wouldn't alter my opinion on Crimea's right to self determination.

The mutual protection agreement regarding Ukraine is a NATO agreement as far as I understand it.
I don't think Kiev and Washington DC have a direct mutual protection treaty.

One might wonder why Ukraine insists on keeping Crimea.
Natural resource development is the answer. Ukraine is agriculture--Crimea is mining and petroleum, especially the vast yet-to-be developed oil and gas reserves just off the coast of Crimea. Europe wants and needs those reserves in order to become less dependent on Russia, which is why Keiv had originally decided to go with the EU plan of alignment. At the last minute the now ousted Ukraine prez decided against it and went with the alignment with Russia. This, pizzed off the EU and Washington.
Yep--it's all about oil. (or mostly anyway)