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<blockquote data-quote="Frankie" data-source="post: 60716" data-attributes="member: 13"><p>Years ago, other breed associations laughed and poked fun at the Angus Association while Angus breeders spent their time, money and effort to produce the data that makes up Angus EPDs. Now that commercial cattlemen understand and want EPDs, these same breed associations want to use Angus EPDs to build their own. If they want reliable EPDs, send in the data and create them. The Angus Association is refusing to participate (at this time) and that's OK with me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The computer program that creates EPDs is a sophisticated, high level mathmatical program. Not to be rude, but you don't even seem to understand what EPDs do. How could you expect to understand the mathmatical formula that they use to create EPDs? Every breed association uses much the same formula; call your other breed association and ask them. Maybe they'll be nicer than the AAA people.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd take them a copy of MARC's across breeds EPDs. That will give a basis for comparing Angus EPDs with other breeds. But be warned, you might not like the result.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Angus Association took all the BW, WW, YW's reported to the Association in 1976 (I think), averaged them, and called that zero when they started EPDs. But that doesn't mean anything; EPDs have been adjusted since then. The program that creates EPDs has been improved. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Explain to the bull buyer that EPDs won't tell him what a calf will wean at. EPDs will never, ever tell you what something will weigh. They can't. If you breed a Charloais cow and a Jersey cow to the same bull, would you expect the calf to weigh he same at birth, weaning or yearling? The bull is only half the calf. You may think EPDs are no good, but, believe me, more and more cattlemen are recognizing their value.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I hate to break it to you, but you're in the minority if you're mystifed about EPDs. I've explained them to you, as well as others, and you continue to say the same thing. Every breed association probably has a brochure that explains how their EPDs were created. Have you taken the time to read them? The Angus brochure that I prefer to hand out to bull customers who are not so comfortable with EPDs is called "Bull Buying Stategies to Improve your Herd." I'll look for it online and post a link for you. But you have to read it and <strong>try </strong> to understand what it says. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you don't understand what EPDs are designed to do, how can you tell they correlate to their EPDs? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>CA? Chi-Angus? If so, you're getting hybrid vigor with that crossbred animal that you don't get with Angus. And you haven't identified what "high" YW means.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Now you're ranting. I consider myself a better than average Angus breeder, but know dozens just like me and I'm not at all concerned about Angus not having the highest EPD numbers. I'll bold this for you: <strong>There are no good or bad EPDs.</strong> Some people consider a milk EPD of 15 bad; personally, a cow with that works fine on my grass based program. If you're breeding Continental heifers, you might want a BW EPD of -2. Since I know the EPDs on my Angus, I can use bigger BW EPDs which usually correlate with more muscle and heavier WW and YW. EPDs are not a magic wand. They are a tool for Angus breeders to use. I'll bold this one, too: <strong>If other breed associations want reliable EPDs, get to work reporting data. </strong> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Interesting. I've found that the commercial cattlemen who know the most about EPDs tend to be those actually making their living in ranching. They've embraced them as a tool to help improve their bottom line. The smaller, part time breeders who can't/won't pay more than $1200 for a bull are less interested in learning about them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The AAA runs seminars across the us when a new EPD comes out; they don't cost much. Are you a member of your state Angus Association? Some of those hold very informative meetings on a regular basis. I belong to several Angus groups. The meetings are fun and often informtive. You state Ag university may have programs to help you understand EPDs. They may charge for lunch or something like that, but otherwise, they're a great cheap resource.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Since you don't understand EPDs, your comment that the higher EPD cattle let you down is not logical or likely. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're right, there are honest and crooked in every breed. But, again, I think Angus has the advantage just because of sheer numbers. While there are some big operations that I wouldn't buy cattle from, there are others who have been around for generations and plan to be for more generations.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Cattlemen do want hard facts. And the hard fact is that EPDs are not a silver bullet. There are no silver bullets. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The conditions cattle are raised in has nothing to do with EPDs. EPDs are based on contemporary groups. A contemporary group is a group of at least two calves, born within 90 days and raised, managed, the same. </p><p></p><p>EPDs are very simple. You have a set of cows. They are what they are. You have a management program and grass. They are what they are. EPDs will simply tell you that if you breed those cows to a bull with a WW EPD of 50, you should <strong>EXPECT </strong> the calves from each cow to weigh 50 more pounds at weaning than if you bred those cows to a bull with a 0 WW EPD. That's it. That's what EPDs do.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Frankie, post: 60716, member: 13"] Years ago, other breed associations laughed and poked fun at the Angus Association while Angus breeders spent their time, money and effort to produce the data that makes up Angus EPDs. Now that commercial cattlemen understand and want EPDs, these same breed associations want to use Angus EPDs to build their own. If they want reliable EPDs, send in the data and create them. The Angus Association is refusing to participate (at this time) and that's OK with me. The computer program that creates EPDs is a sophisticated, high level mathmatical program. Not to be rude, but you don't even seem to understand what EPDs do. How could you expect to understand the mathmatical formula that they use to create EPDs? Every breed association uses much the same formula; call your other breed association and ask them. Maybe they'll be nicer than the AAA people. I'd take them a copy of MARC's across breeds EPDs. That will give a basis for comparing Angus EPDs with other breeds. But be warned, you might not like the result. The Angus Association took all the BW, WW, YW's reported to the Association in 1976 (I think), averaged them, and called that zero when they started EPDs. But that doesn't mean anything; EPDs have been adjusted since then. The program that creates EPDs has been improved. Explain to the bull buyer that EPDs won't tell him what a calf will wean at. EPDs will never, ever tell you what something will weigh. They can't. If you breed a Charloais cow and a Jersey cow to the same bull, would you expect the calf to weigh he same at birth, weaning or yearling? The bull is only half the calf. You may think EPDs are no good, but, believe me, more and more cattlemen are recognizing their value. I hate to break it to you, but you're in the minority if you're mystifed about EPDs. I've explained them to you, as well as others, and you continue to say the same thing. Every breed association probably has a brochure that explains how their EPDs were created. Have you taken the time to read them? The Angus brochure that I prefer to hand out to bull customers who are not so comfortable with EPDs is called "Bull Buying Stategies to Improve your Herd." I'll look for it online and post a link for you. But you have to read it and [b]try [/b] to understand what it says. If you don't understand what EPDs are designed to do, how can you tell they correlate to their EPDs? CA? Chi-Angus? If so, you're getting hybrid vigor with that crossbred animal that you don't get with Angus. And you haven't identified what "high" YW means. Now you're ranting. I consider myself a better than average Angus breeder, but know dozens just like me and I'm not at all concerned about Angus not having the highest EPD numbers. I'll bold this for you: [b]There are no good or bad EPDs.[/b] Some people consider a milk EPD of 15 bad; personally, a cow with that works fine on my grass based program. If you're breeding Continental heifers, you might want a BW EPD of -2. Since I know the EPDs on my Angus, I can use bigger BW EPDs which usually correlate with more muscle and heavier WW and YW. EPDs are not a magic wand. They are a tool for Angus breeders to use. I'll bold this one, too: [b]If other breed associations want reliable EPDs, get to work reporting data. [/b] Interesting. I've found that the commercial cattlemen who know the most about EPDs tend to be those actually making their living in ranching. They've embraced them as a tool to help improve their bottom line. The smaller, part time breeders who can't/won't pay more than $1200 for a bull are less interested in learning about them. The AAA runs seminars across the us when a new EPD comes out; they don't cost much. Are you a member of your state Angus Association? Some of those hold very informative meetings on a regular basis. I belong to several Angus groups. The meetings are fun and often informtive. You state Ag university may have programs to help you understand EPDs. They may charge for lunch or something like that, but otherwise, they're a great cheap resource. Since you don't understand EPDs, your comment that the higher EPD cattle let you down is not logical or likely. You're right, there are honest and crooked in every breed. But, again, I think Angus has the advantage just because of sheer numbers. While there are some big operations that I wouldn't buy cattle from, there are others who have been around for generations and plan to be for more generations. Cattlemen do want hard facts. And the hard fact is that EPDs are not a silver bullet. There are no silver bullets. The conditions cattle are raised in has nothing to do with EPDs. EPDs are based on contemporary groups. A contemporary group is a group of at least two calves, born within 90 days and raised, managed, the same. EPDs are very simple. You have a set of cows. They are what they are. You have a management program and grass. They are what they are. EPDs will simply tell you that if you breed those cows to a bull with a WW EPD of 50, you should [b]EXPECT [/b] the calves from each cow to weigh 50 more pounds at weaning than if you bred those cows to a bull with a 0 WW EPD. That's it. That's what EPDs do. [/QUOTE]
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