How would you handle this?

[red one]

I originally posted this in the Everything board, but had a suggestion to post it here....

A bull was sold to a guy ("Bob") that was a calving ease bull. "Pete" ran some purebred heifers (of a different breed than the bull, approx. 20 head or so) with "Bob's" crossbred heifers. "Pete" then sold some of these heifers to "Jim". Recently, "Jim" called "Pete" and told "Pete" that they have pulled every calf, all calves have died, and have lost 1 cow due to big calves. "Pete" has pulled several calves, 3 of which were born dead.

"Bob" has pulled 3 calves out of his 40 head. The pulls were no harder than normal, most needing just a hand pull, all calves have been born alive. He's noticed BW's are a little higher than normal.

Data on the bull in question:
- Bull had calving ease EPDs according to the breed association, and a low BW.
- According to seller, bull's dam BW average is 70 lbs. Other bull calves out of the dam were sold for heifer bulls, no problems with them.
- Bull's sire was promoted as a heifer bull AI Sire.
- Bull's sire averages a 75 lb. BW on 500 progeny.
- Seller is calving heifers sired by this calving ease AI bull, and have had no calving difficulties.

"Bob" would just like a replacement for the bull, and is just assuming a gene popped up somewhere causing the bw problems. "Pete" wants compensation for the heifer and calves that were lost. There are unknowns in: pelvic areas and size/history or background of "Pete's" heifers, and management practices in both feeding and calving. What does the seller owe "Pete" and "Jim"?

The seller asked me what I'd do, and besides replacing the bull for "Bob", I'm not sure what kind of compensation there would be for "Pete" or "Jim". What do you all think?

 

[chippie]

so that folks can see the replies at the other board

http://www.cattletoday.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82487

 

[Galloways1]

My anwer didn't get posted on it before, so I will reply again.

I don't feel the seller owes anything to anyone. The original sale was to Bob. He pulled 3 out of 40 calves...pretty common. Seems to me the bull was easy calving for Bob. Too many possible reasons (breed, pelvic area, management) as to why the 20 or so head of Pete's heifers had issues.

Some breeds have chased the low birthweight deal to the point where the resulting female offspring couldn't calve a jackrabbit.

Easier to blame it on the bull, than to question someones replacement heifers.

 

[brimmer X]

I believe Galloway2 said it about as well as could be said.

 

[salebarn junkie]

The bulls only half the equation the cows could be big headed and square shoulderd. I dont think the breeder owes anyone. If you can hand pull a calf the cow probably would have had it on its own..

 

[cross_7]

My :2cents:
I have learned from this board people think different and different parts of the world is a factor as well

As long as you are sure on your breeding, everything after that is out of your control.
Sometimes there is just an anomaly

You sold the bull to Bob based on the bull's genetic make up. You did not guarantee Bob anything, but if your reputation or morals drive you make Bob happy then thats your choice.
Bob stated his calves were not overly large then I would think the bull wasn't the problem


Now as far as Pete and Jim are concerned you don't owe them a dang thing.
Where I come from you take your lumps just like everyone else.
If you are a grown a$$ man you don't expect or want anyone to take your lumps for you, what kind of man would run crying wanting compensation for your loss.(liberal thinking IMO)

I'd like to see the heifers just to satisfy my peace of mind but I sure wouldn't feel obligated to do anything

 

[dun]

My :2cents:
I have learned from this board people think different and different parts of the world is a factor as well

As long as you are sure on your breeding, everything after that is out of your control.
Sometimes there is just an anomaly

You sold the bull to Bob based on the bull's genetic make up. You did not guarantee Bob anything, but if your reputation or morals drive you make Bob happy then thats your choice.
Bob stated his calves were not overly large then I would think the bull wasn't the problem


Now as far as Pete and Jim are concerned you don't owe them a dang thing.
Where I come from you take your lumps just like everyone else.
If you are a grown a$$ man you don't expect or want anyone to take your lumps for you, what kind of man would run crying wanting compensation for your loss.(liberal thinking IMO)

I'd like to see the heifers just to satisfy my peace of mind but I sure wouldn't feel obligated to do anything

This pretty well sums it up!

 

[Cattleman200]

There are also many factors that are in question on this issue. Its a fact that people manage cattle differently. We do not know the size of the heifers that had problems. We do not know if the heifers were being fed heavy before they calved. We do not know the size of the calves that were pulled. The man that first sold the bull IMO would not be liable for anything. Based on the 40 that calved with minimal problems I do not think Bob is liable at all either unless he gave some kind of guarantee of easy calving on the bull.

Usually in a case like this the BULL gets any blame on having to pull calves or calving problems. Like it was said he is only half of the process. Whats really crazy is I have had people tell me... Hey , that bull I bought from you sired 10 normal size calves and then he sired one that weighed 110 pounds. They do not see the logic that if the first 10 were normal size and then they had a big one then the problem was with their cow. There is not a magic sperm floating around in there that will cause a 30 pound bigger calf.

I would say its a bad experience and leave it at that.


Circle H Ranch

 

[Kingfisher]

Maybe he doesn't know how to pull a calf...

 

[Isomade]

My :2cents:
I have learned from this board people think different and different parts of the world is a factor as well

As long as you are sure on your breeding, everything after that is out of your control.
Sometimes there is just an anomaly

You sold the bull to Bob based on the bull's genetic make up. You did not guarantee Bob anything, but if your reputation or morals drive you make Bob happy then thats your choice.
Bob stated his calves were not overly large then I would think the bull wasn't the problem


Now as far as Pete and Jim are concerned you don't owe them a dang thing.
Where I come from you take your lumps just like everyone else.
If you are a grown a$$ man you don't expect or want anyone to take your lumps for you, what kind of man would run crying wanting compensation for your loss.(liberal thinking IMO)

I'd like to see the heifers just to satisfy my peace of mind but I sure wouldn't feel obligated to do anything

This pretty well sums it up!

:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

 

[Nite Hawk]

A question might be how old are those heifers? I have seen some pretty young heifers being bred that should NEVER have been deliberately bred at that young of age. I know of deliberate AI breedings of heifers that calved at 16-18 months ( jersey, some do cycle that young). Personally I think it is too young, and you are asking for calving problems on heifers that small.

 

[robert]

Bob should tell Pete to go buy his own bull in the future! Other than that I agree completely with cross_7!

 

[CKC1586]

My anwer didn't get posted on it before, so I will reply again.

I don't feel the seller owes anything to anyone. The original sale was to Bob. He pulled 3 out of 40 calves...pretty common. Seems to me the bull was easy calving for Bob. Too many possible reasons (breed, pelvic area, management) as to why the 20 or so head of Pete's heifers had issues.

Some breeds have chased the low birthweight deal to the point where the resulting female offspring couldn't calve a jackrabbit.

Easier to blame it on the bull, than to question someones replacement heifers.

:tiphat: Yup. Bingo!! :nod:

 

[greybeard]

A bull (or cow, heifer, husband or wife) ain't the same as buying a goldfish in a bag at walmart. Unless otherwise implied, there's no money back guarantee on livestock. When Bob loaded the bull on his trailer, it became his bull, and you can bet, if every calf it sired had been grand champion material, Bob would make no bones about it being HIS bull, and Jim and Pete would be beaming with pride that they made the perfect choice in using Bob's bull.

A sire that works well for one person's herd don't always fit with someone else's and the fact that Bob had few problems with his calving while Pete and Jim did using the same bull leads one to believe the problem is probably within the latter 2 herds or herd management--especially in light of the fact that Jim was using at least some of the stock that originally were part of Bob's herd.
No matter what, seller's transaction was with Bob--not Pete or Jim.
Seller owes no one anything unless he just wants to help Bob out.

 

[back2dfuture]

I think Cross_7, Robert & greybeard pretty much summed it up... As long as Bob is happy with the results of the bull, that's should be the only concern of the seller

 

[red one]

Thanks for the replies and opinions, you all pretty much summed up what I was thinking. I'll be sure to pass the advice on to my friend.