HELP--Need advice on transferring AI'd Angus!

[boondocks]

I am trying to transfer AAA registration certificates for two heifers we AI'd via Select Sires then sold a week or two later. I was doing the transfers online tonight and the website is telling me I can't transfer them bc I don't own the AI bull. WHAT THE HECK?!

Do you mean that all the sales I've been to where the heifers sold as AI-bred to some bazillion dollar bull, that the sellers all owned the sires?

There do seem to be one or two extremely limited exceptions (if I read correctly, where a family member owns the bull or you're an employee of the owner).

I am gobsmacked. Will call the AAA office in the am but am wondering if there's something I'm missing...this is not good.

 

[bse]

Just to clarify, you are transfering papers on the heifers you sold, or transferring AI certificates?
When you transfer registration papers online, you just fill in what there AI'ed to, it will show a red warning when you put it in the cart. It will have the word May need further action or something like that. It will go to your cart for checkout. If something is truly wrong it won't go to cart. Its kinda just telling you a certificate will need to be bought, in this case by the buyer after calving.
If its a certificate, cant help you there but I'd think it would be the same way, as long as you have there member code.

 

[boondocks]

Just to clarify, you are transfering papers on the heifers you sold, or transferring AI certificates?
When you transfer registration papers online, you just fill in what there AI'ed to, it will show a red warning when you put it in the cart. It will have the word May need further action or something like that. It will go to your cart for checkout. If something is truly wrong it won't go to cart. Its kinda just telling you a certificate will need to be bought, in this case by the buyer after calving.
If its a certificate, cant help you there but I'd think it would be the same way, as long as you have there member code.

Thanks BSE! After a sleepless night, I called AAA this morning and they confirmed the above--that when you sell a heifer which has been serviced on AI, and then try to transfer the certificate online, it will give you an error message if you don't own the service bull, but that the transfer will go through. She said the warning really is wrong, and that it should simply indicate that the buyer will have to purchase an AI certificate in order to register the resulting calf (if any).

Not for the first time, I am extremely frustrated with that website, and the way that it doesn't match up to reality and how they actually handle things. 9 times out of 10, I end up calling them with some glitch/issue/anomaly.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

the buyer will have to purchase an AI certificate in order to register the resulting calf (if any).

How does a person know, for sure, that the buyer is actually buying the correct AI cert. ? Can the buyer "say" that they need to purchase an AI certificate for bull # 123 when the calf is actually the progeny of bull # 456?

 

[boondocks]

the buyer will have to purchase an AI certificate in order to register the resulting calf (if any).

How does a person know, for sure, that the buyer is actually buying the correct AI cert. ? Can the buyer "say" that they need to purchase an AI certificate for bull # 123 when the calf is actually the progeny of bull # 456?

On the transfer form, you have to say which bull the heifer was AI'd to. And when the AI tech comes out, (s)he fills out a form saying which bull was used on which cow. That form goes back to the semen co. So I assume that when you request an AI certificate for animal AAA 651728 (for example), they can cross-reference and (theoretically at least) catch you if you lie. (I'm not sure how it works if you buy semen and do the AI yourself; maybe some others will weigh in...Just honor system maybe?).

Of course, the bigger question is when you AI, then turn them in with a bull right away. I would assume people do a DNA test in that case, but I do wonder if some people don't just take an educated guess at which sire it ended up being. I would hope not...

 

[bse]

Part of what you say there is right, you do put it on registration papers when you transfer.
There is no form sent to a semen company when the tech AI's the animals, not sure what there filling out for you. You can buy all the certificates you want on any different bull you want, even if you never purchased a single straw of that particular bull.
Right now it is a honor system that I hope in the near future will change with parentage testing. Sometimes there are honest mistakes made when a calf comes early or late and without testing you never know till somewhere down the line the cow is tested for parentage for some reason and she is not what she is supposed to be.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

bse and Boondocks, thank you for answering my question.

 

[boondocks]

Part of what you say there is right, you do put it on registration papers when you transfer.
There is no form sent to a semen company when the tech AI's the animals, not sure what there filling out for you. You can buy all the certificates you want on any different bull you want, even if you never purchased a single straw of that particular bull.
Right now it is a honor system that I hope in the near future will change with parentage testing. Sometimes there are honest mistakes made when a calf comes early or late and without testing you never know till somewhere down the line the cow is tested for parentage for some reason and she is not what she is supposed to be.

When I get my AI done, the tech fills out a form in triplicate (or duplicate but I think triplicate) with the name/ID of the cow and the bull, date serviced and by whom and for whom. We get a copy and he takes the others. We then get a bill in the mail from the semen company which reflects that service. So, while I'm not sure if they automatically cross-check it when we order the AI certificates after calves are born, it appears they certainly have the ability to.

Agree though that there's room for error and outright fraud, if my understanding of how the system works is correct.

 

[bse]

I see what your saying there, but I think thats just a way to bill you for services, I doubt they cross reference that when your buying certificates. I've bought semen from individuals and never even done business with that company, and get certificates.
I would like to see these cattle parentage checked before registering, you have to do it for ET calves so why not AI?

 

[boondocks]

I see what your saying there, but I think thats just a way to bill you for services, I doubt they cross reference that when your buying certificates. I've bought semen from individuals and never even done business with that company, and get certificates.
I would like to see these cattle parentage checked before registering, you have to do it for ET calves so why not AI?

BSE, I agree with you in theory that a DNA test would be nice, but I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. In our case, we run a small, closed herd, and breeding is solely done by a trained professional AI technician using semen he has brought. We don't have a clean-up bull. If a cow calves some 9 months later, there's really no question that the semen the tech provided is what did the trick. I suppose there's a theoretical chance he mixed up straws, but seems pretty small. Maybe a requirement for DNA test would make more sense when a cow is immediately sent in with a bull after AI...

Here's another thought. Don't some folks with registered Angus run more than one bull (and maybe each isn't always a registered Angus bull)? In such cases, wouldn't the argument for DNA testing for AI'd cows apply just as much to breeders who use only natural service?

 

[Workinonit Farm]

I know of one outfit, that was rather large, that AI'd pretty much every female. Then they would all be turned out with clean-up bulls, same day. So........

 

[bse]

Boondocks, very good point there. I never look at it,from 100% AI with no cleanup bull, that would just add extra cost for no reason. There is that small chance on the straws being mixed up, I did check a straw after breeding once and it was a bull id never heard of, but came out of the right rack of semen. If you check each straw after insemination that could eliminate that.
I would think there's alot more using cleanup bulls than not, but maybe with folks in your situation it should stay honor system then as a buyer have it checked if you feel the need.