Hard Cull'in Continued ?

[Stocker Steve]

I am seeing a lot of articles on how to make more profit running running fewer cows with less milk due to the increase in forage and by product prices. There are lots of suggestions. The simplest northern approach is to reduce the winter feed cost and then ship the ones that can not bred back on time. I ran some quick numbers and doing this could "save" me $91 per cow per winter on feed. Question is how many cows would I wash out. Could just be some bony wf range cows left...

Do you know anyone who has done this and how did it work out?
Is it effective to presort and sell breds by BCS to reduce the number of opens later?

 

[Aaron]

Your not going to starve a profit out of a cow up here in the winter. You'll end up finding her dead in a snowbank somewhere.

 

[bse]

I culled for fertility 4 yrs ago not size had 32 cows in 2 different claving seasons most being in the fall group A Id 23 put the bull in day 17 after A I he stayed 32 days preg checked 28 days later 6 had to get on the trailer in the spring same deal 3 got on the trailer it really hurt losing 9 calves for the next yr but now it all works out i still do the same things i cull 10% every year and retain as many heifers as i let cows go so im staying at 25 cull 2 to 3 a yr whatever is open makes easy descisions on culls i think it has uped my fertility and everything just falls into place from vaccinating to being done calving in 45 to 55 days some still come a few days late.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I used to buy cheap alfalfa/grass hay from semi retired ex diary guys w/ big tractors and no cattle. Those days are gone. So the question on who can overwinter on cheaper feed AND make a profit.
Culling 9 out of 32 (25%) sounds like a lot but we all do it, just not usually all in one year. IF you spend an average of $91 each to allow the high maintenance 25% to bred back in season - - the (overly) simple math says you are spending 4x91=$364 extra for each the 9 calves from the high input cows. This is the type of calculation that drives the cow efficiency experts.
I would not expect to bank the entire $364 of savings but I do think hard cull'in pays off long term.

 

[bse]

The first year was tuff but i think it has paid off since tighter calving season more uniform calves dont have near enough for a load but i keep all the heifers and breed them and sell em as bred. And the steers look ok as a group not that it benefits me.

 

[Stocker Steve]

The first year was tuff but i think it has paid off since tighter calving season more uniform calves dont have near enough for a load but i keep all the heifers and breed them and sell em as bred.

Good point. One benefit of hard cull'in could be selling replacements from the cows that made the cut.

 

[AllForage]

Steve,

The type of cow you are reading about is not going to be found at sales barns or be some western culls. Folks have spent a lot of money and invested years trying to develop that type of cow I believe you are seeking and/or reading about. With that said, you will have to spend some money and found a herd of your own. Or the other option is to buy the best you can and find a highly linebred with traits that you desire then breed your own type. I get the feeling you like a lot of liquidity and having a nucleus herd might go against that.

Obviously timing of calving and a sensible weaning protocol based on your resources will go a long way. The other key that you have disagreed with in the past is consistency. A consistent herd in type and ability will be able to be managed as one so as to contribute to your least cost goals. Keep a maternal moderate cow base and use cross breeding for your growth. A very moderate frame 4ish cow will winter dry on canary grass and other low quality forages and given a month minimum on spring flush will be ready to milk again.

just some thoughts.....

 

[Stocker Steve]

I already calve on grass and I know where to get the reed canary. Could I be 2/3 of the way home?

The western culls were not worth the rodeo, but yes I do have quite a few sales barn cows. Most of herd are wooly smaller cows with herf influence that I bought right, and I like these even though some of the neighbors look down on them as "crossed up". I asked Terry Gompert about culling some of these and he said wait - - they may be your most efficient cows. Since then I have been putting AI herf bulls on blacks and AI black bulls on wf for the first couple weeks of a breeding season.

I think an advantage of less consistency is that you do not need years and years to make a change in a commercial cow herd. You just back up the trailer once or twice like bse. :nod:

I agree that the cross calves will not be as consistent as a line bred herd.

 

[AllForage]

The neighbors can mind their own business as far as I am concerned.

As I have said before, I like the way you think and try different things.

Your statement about consistency just does not make any sense though. That is one hurdle you need to get over. You will be endlessly hard culling until you get a grasp on your cows genetically. Every year you are re-arranging the furniture more in a unorganized room. There are very few if any popular AI sites that will get you that moderate cow. Once you identify your ideal type, why would one want to change his cowherd?

If the purchasing of cows works for you the that's fine, but you will be culling possibly more every year as most are breeding for the opposite goal.

 

[Stocker Steve]

One neighbor has been spending big $ on high growth BA bulls. After a couple herd bulls like that he is having a lot problems with getting his cow bred back... AI semen can result in the same problem. I think I have consistently gotten keepers out of Victor herf bulls. Not so happy with most BA AI options, and I am now looking at OCC bulls. What do you think of the 2 OCC bulls in the Select Sire line up?

 

[Stocker Steve]

Your statement about consistency just does not make any sense though. That is one hurdle you need to get over. You will be endlessly hard culling until you get a grasp on your cows genetically. Every year you are re-arranging the furniture more in a unorganized room. There are very few if any popular AI sites that will get you that moderate cow. Once you identify your ideal type, why would one want to change his cowherd? quote]

I think ideal really depends on having a clear and stable production system. I am not a smart man so I may never get a good grip on ideal. I know my direction shifted some when the price of junk CRP hay here recently hit $160 a ton. I used to buy alfalfa mix hay for $60 to $80 a ton.
One of the benifits of buying small red cows is you do not get many, if any, of the popular and growthy angus genetics. Some of these cows consistently throw nice calves with capacity. Not the biggest calf, nor the longest calf, but nice. I think they call this prepotent. I think an energy efficient OCC bull on these prepotent old timey range cows is my current direction. What do you think of that arrangment?

 

[AllForage]

Your statement about consistency just does not make any sense though. That is one hurdle you need to get over. You will be endlessly hard culling until you get a grasp on your cows genetically. Every year you are re-arranging the furniture more in a unorganized room. There are very few if any popular AI sites that will get you that moderate cow. Once you identify your ideal type, why would one want to change his cowherd? quote]

I think ideal really depends on having a clear and stable production system. I am not a smart man so I may never get a good grip on ideal. I know my direction shifted some when the price of junk CRP hay here recently hit $160 a ton. I used to buy alfalfa mix hay for $60 to $80 a ton.
One of the benifits of buying small red cows is you do not get many, if any, of the popular and growthy angus genetics. Some of these cows consistently throw nice calves with capacity. Not the biggest calf, nor the longest calf, but nice. I think they call this prepotent. I think an energy efficient OCC bull on these prepotent old timey range cows is my current direction. What do you think of that arrangment?

Come on Steve give yourself some more credit. At least some form of low cost production is at the heart of all your posts and you are using a forage chain.

You are absolutely correct on establishing a production system. The only way it can be stable in some way is if you are able to produce all your hay and possibly bedding. This year taught everyone a lesson. Marsh hay over here brought 50-100 buck a round bale. If I did not make my own hay I would be out of business, even selling high priced grass fed. The production system and the animals must sync holistically. That was my point about developing your own base cow herd. In bad times you cull down to them and in good you can buy in more. The cows genetic ability matches your resources. Then you laugh at all the neighbors with hayburners that are open.

I am partial to Herefords, but I know Victors tend to milk a little heavier. There is a Hereford breeder I think in Tracy, MN that breeds a more old style animal. Nelson I think is their name. Never been there though or spoke to them. I like bulls goes along with the low input and makes life easier.

 

[Nesikep]

Also, if you have these big cows that don't breed back on time, and you're calving in feb when there's no natural food, a solution could also be to calf out 2 month later when grass is growing, which will both reduce their feed requirements in the coldest parts of winter, and give them the best food when they need it most... and if they are indeed heavy producers, you probably won't notice much of a difference in calf size in the fall.
Some other things to consider is just because a cow is small doesn't make her either fertile or efficient. Everyone will have a set of conditions, preferences and requirements that will be different from the next guy.
As for uniformity, it does fetch slightly higher prices at a sale barn, but it doesn't mean the calves need to be identical, they just have to fit in with each other... We made the mistake of getting a shorthorn bull with a lot of white influence, but without his influence, we'd have a 95% brown/red herd, and from now on, the goal is 100% brown, with a good beefy look for the sale barn, and trouble-free mothers. I have a couple animals which I think are particularly efficient, they certainly stop eating sooner than their counterparts, have good longevity (13-16 calves/cow). I might not be able to cull all at once, but I'm keeping my eye on that line for expanding the herd.

 

[inyati13]

You guys that do this for a profit in the north (or at least say north of a line through Indianapolis in the east where a lot of you guys are) have even a harder time. Here there is always grass if the pasture is managed and drought is not bad. I had hoped my cows would lose some condition this winter. I have 12 cows and heifers. They probably range from 7 to 8. Average is probably 8. I think if anything, they gained some condition this winter. I fed a total of 17 head this winter counting the bull and calves that weigh about 400 lbs only 3 to 4 square bales of hay a day. Started at Christmas when we had a snow. They are not showing much interest in hay right now. I cleared probably 40 acres (80 acre farm, now 10 acres not cleared) with a Caterpillar D3G dozer over the past 3 years. Seeded it and tracked it in. Germination has been remarkable. The Robertson County Cattle Association voted Thursday night to have their summer field day at my farm. My biggest problem has been managing the amount of red clover and ladino clover. I have trouble making a profit with my circumstances. Looks harder where you guys are at!!!

 

[Stocker Steve]

I culled late calvers last fall and plan to do the same again this year.
I have 6% of the bred cows that are thin after corn stover and oats straw. Plan to sort them off and put them with the stockers to get some condition back, then sell them.
I also ran potential replacements with cows all winter. Most look good, but about 30% of the heifers did not winter well and may become stockers also.
Planning to use some OCC semen this year to make even better baldies.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Culled two big girls this week. They got fat on oats straw and grass but were slow breeders. I thought they were about 1,500#, but they averaged 1,622#. They weighed about 1400 when I ought them 2 years ago. I should be able to feed four lowlines for how much they were eating!

 

[inyati13]

Culled two big girls this week. They got fat on oats straw and grass but were slow breeders. I thought they were about 1,500#, but they averaged 1,622#. They weighed about 1400 when I ought them 2 years ago. I should be able to feed four lowlines for how much they were eating!

Good Steve. I remember this thread. I have been at this such a short time and I am understocked so have had little to push me into rumenations on efficiency, etc. I still worry about cows being over-conditioned. Since this thread was started I have gone through another breeding season. My cows have bred back about on the 40 day mark. The bull always gets them on their first open cycle. I started AIing some of the heifers and I got strung out on them because I was inexperienced but now have that done. I am always impressed with how you and AllForage talk about this.

On a side note, most of the time I find people under-estimate cattle weight. Even the guy who hauls mine seems to get them wrong and he has done this all his life. The only cow everyone over-estimated was Bertha. She looked bigger becasue she was so tall.

 

[Aaron]

Shipped two last week. Two real fatties. 1475 lbs on an 8 year old cow with the start of cancer eye, $73.50 cwt. 1275 lbs on a heifer that was bred last fall and must have aborted the calf quietly in the winter, $79.25 cwt. They were a grandmother/granddaughter pair and the mother went last fall, so I guess that cow family is taken care of.