Had to pull a dead one- When to you intervene?

[M.Magis]

I really missed the bus last year and kept an old cow I should have culled. She looked fine last year, but late this winter she started going downhill. Turns out her teeth are shot. I knew she was close to calving so I was just waiting. Last night around 6 I was getting ready to bale a bit of hay and could see she had started the process. After I was done around 8, she hadn't made a lot of progress but I could see feet starting to show. I gave her a little more time, and went back at 10 and nothing had changed. So I roped her, tied her off to the Ranger and took a look. The feet and head were right there, so I tied some baling twine on the feet and started pulling. Now, it's been nearly 25 years since I've pulled a calf, but I've never had one this hard to pull. The head and front legs weren't bad, but from there it just wouldn't budge. About a half hour later, I finally managed to get it out. I didn't weigh it (yet), but it didn't seem overly big too me. I think she's just not strong enough anymore. My question is, the calf's head seemed swollen. Would this indicate she'd been having trouble for a while? I didn't want to interfere too soon, but now I'm second guessing my decision to wait.
I also learned why some wear gloves. This stink isn't coming off my hands anytime soon.

 

[callmefence]

I would have been lucky to catch it in time because the mature cows are pretty much left to their own.
Heifers are kept by the house. My general rule is 45 minutes of no progress I start getting my things together. Things together, still no progress get her in the headgate go ahead and give her some help. I've pulled many with twine. Now I'm very quick to go to the Jack. Just use it conservatively. It saves me from getting exhausted if things go bad.

 

[JMJ Farms]

My rule is from the time I see the water bag if he's not in the ground in 1 hour it's my turn. I always pull with her contractions provided she's having contractions which usually makes it easier and you're less likely to damage her insides. Head was probably swollen because of the length of time she had been pushing. Most of my mature cows take about 5-10 minutes. Longer than that and I start getting anxious. Only had to pull two this year. One backwards. And one had a leg back. Both are fine. Sorry for your loss.

 

[creekdrive]

We will usually give them an hour from the time we see them start. Heifers we sometimes give a little longer (maybe an hour & a half total) just because it seems like they are up & down more rather than concentrating on the job at hand. As long as they are making progress we don't usually intervene. If they are struggling away and nothing is happening we will get them up and pull it. Our setup is pretty good and it's not usually hard work to chase them in and get it over with. Have never killed one from helping out too soon... Pulled a few first timers this year that I'm sure given some more time they would've done it on their own, got the chains on, gave a little tug and the calf all but fell out.

The swollen head usually indicates they were having some trouble. Could have just been that the head was up against the pelvis as she was pushing.

 

[skyhightree1]

M.Magis sorry for the loss of calf but on hard labors where calf died or whatever the tongue was swollen ive noticed never honestly paid attention to the head. I generally give an hour on them and if no progress go ahead and get in gear to pull.

 

[M.Magis]

I probably should have stepped in sooner, but she never laid down and only the pump-jack tail let me know she was starting. I normally don't watch the older cows close, but I had a feeling this one would have trouble. Never used a jack before, but I'd have paid good money for one last night. I haven't been that exhausted in years. Got swollen hands and rope burns today, but at least the cow's alive.

 

[Koffi Babone]

If the calf smells bad, it has been dead for a while (the warmer the climate, the faster they start to smell after death, but in general it takes at least 24hrs for the smell to develop).

I tend to suggest intervention very soon, but my opinion is biased...

If you see an animal going into labour, and if it is safe to handle them and the waters have ruptured; there is nothing wrong with sticking your arm inside to see what is going on (provided the hind area is washed with luke warm water and gentle soap).

If you feel a head and two front feet and the calf responds (to pinching the tongue or foot), then you can wait for nature to do its thing.

If you can't find two front feet and head, the cow will not give birth without help. You need to intervene or call a vet if you are not comfortable dealing with dystocias. The longer the wait, the lower the chance of a live calf (hence my bias for early intervention).

A backwards presentation (hind feet and tail 1st) may resolve itself on its own, but this also usually requires intervention (especially if you want a live calf).

If the calf does not respond to pinching the tongue or foot, it is possible that is is dead. Dead calves usually require extraction with help.

N.B. When pulling, make sure you pull downwards (towards the cow's feet) and not horizontally to the cow in labour. in other words, follow the natural movement of calf coming out.

 

[M.Magis]

I probably should have clarified, I don't think the calf itself smelled. At least I didn't notice any smell. The smell was from the water sac and such. Not really a rotten smell, more an antiseptic type smell, to me at least. It's soaked in pretty good.

 

[TCRanch]

Swollen head indicates the calf had been in the birth canal too long & suffocated. I feel your pain as far as when to intervene with an older cow; been there and I'm sorry for your loss. We had a hard pull on a heifer last week that included a dead calf, heifer down with nerve damage & a retained placenta. Still has contracted tendons on one leg, Lute didn't expel the RA, mega doses of penicillin & the vet cleaned her out/gave her a uterine infusion this morning. Talk about a smell! There goes my appetite the rest of the day =(.

 

[Rafter S]

From what you said it sounds like the calf got hip locked. When that happens I've occasionally had luck with twisting the calf.

 

[skyhightree1]

I probably should have stepped in sooner, but she never laid down and only the pump-jack tail let me know she was starting. I normally don't watch the older cows close, but I had a feeling this one would have trouble. Never used a jack before, but I'd have paid good money for one last night. I haven't been that exhausted in years. Got swollen hands and rope burns today, but at least the cow's alive.

Yes atleast one is still alive and able to be sold.

 

[Rafter S]

...and you mentioned the smell on your hands. Wash them with toothpaste instead of soap. Then they'll smell like toothpaste, but it's an improvement.

 

[M.Magis]

...and you mentioned the smell on your hands. Wash them with toothpaste instead of soap. Then they'll smell like toothpaste, but it's an improvement.

Thanks, my wife would have loved to have known that one last night. I washed twice with hand soap, once with dish soap, and then took another shower. I was too tired to walk down the stair and get the Gojo.
I checked on the cow at lunch. For the first time since last Sat she's with the group, so she must be feeling better. In the light of day, the calf looks bigger than I thought. Still not huge, but for her condition it was too big. I appreciate all the advice.

 

[Nesikep]

I've never had problems particular to old cows... How old was this cow?

If the smell was that bad, I'd also bet the calf was dead for some time.. The smell of a healthy calf comes off easy.. the smell of retained placenta after 3 or 4 days of cooking is stomach turning, and will stick like heck.. though I've dealt with them enough I've got some tolerance to it now.

I am pretty quick to give them a hand if I see progress is slow or halted... If nothing else it give me peace of mind and I don't second guess myself for a month after... Most of the time just a little bit of holding/pulling even without twine/chains will dramatically speed things up

 

[M.Magis]

I bought her as half of a pair a few years ago, so I don't know her exact age. Based on her teeth, she's one year older then she should have been allowed to get. It's the same cow I'm pretty sure has a piece of hardware in her, so that contributed too. She's looked better since the grass started growing and getting the magnet in her, but with the pregnancy dragging her down she's had a hard time gaining. I'll give her some time to recuperate, then take her for a ride.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Should see its lips and tongue moving if its alive when you get the head out. If they get locked at the chest and hips it doesnt take too long to lose them sometimes.

 

[Nesikep]

The few I've had get hiplocked were long enough they were able to breathe at halfway, which gave me a lot more time to work on getting them unstuck.. one in particular was really bad, my dad and I were working on him for 20 minutes, and yes, we were twisting!

 

[jerry27150]

had one old cow just acted like she didn't have the energy to freshen on her own, she didn't lay down either so I pulled the calf & it was fine. when pulling I sometimes hook four wheeler on to pull calf

 

[Katpau]

I have occasionally had a cow have trouble delivering what seemed to be a normal size calf, but I have always been able to determine a cause such as a leg or head back or tangled up with a twin. I do know to turn their hips sideways, so perhaps hip lock was your only problem. The first thing I do when I can't pull a normal size and positioned calf without difficulty is to check for a second. In the last few years I have had several situations similar to yours, and in each case there was a twin back in there that was apparently tangled up with the one we were pulling. The last twin was so deep you could barely reach its nose. Both were dead and swollen and the first was coming butt first. Delivery was very difficult and including cutting off a leg. If twins are the case with yours, she should have either had the second by now or be sick or dead. If she is fine that is most likely not the problem. I expect your calf may have died for some unknown reason prior to the cow going into labor. A dead calf is more difficult to deliver because they can't help with the birth by moving themselves into position.