Had One Slip

[slick4591]

I had a one calfer (calf delivered by c-sec) bred to my bull before I sold him and she apparently slipped at some point after he was gone. Saw her being mounted first of September so I had her set up and AI'd the end of last month. I pulled blood the other day and BioPryn called me this morning and told me she tested open. Called a different AI tech after the call and carried her to him a little while ago.

I guess I'm wondering with all the factors surrounding this cow, how many would have shipped her after this morning's phone call? If you would have, would you mind giving me your reason(s)?

 

[Anonymous]

If she comes up open again ship her.
Slip could be anything. First Ai could be the tech. This one...easy choice if she come up open

 

[Taurus]

Ive heard that sometimes a C-section will affected the reproductive systems and lowers fertility.

 

[cowgirl_jenna]

I guess if she was just a "average cow" and I had any reason at all to ship her I would, but if she is a good cow and you have any reason to keep her, you could give her another chance. Only you know what value the cow is to you.

We had a jersey cow at the dairy that had a c-section on her 2nd calf. She was one of our best cows. 1st ai attempt failed. I bred her on the 2nd myself and she took, but she seemed to have a really crazy cervix I noticed. I was scared this had something to do with the c-section and we'd have trouble again. But, she later calved on her own with 0 trouble.
jenna

 

[bse]

If they check open they have to go around here, I fooled with one a year like that ive learned its not worth it. Could be lots of reasons for it. if you want to keep her, A Iing once is not a lot maybe there are some tecs out there that get 100% but not likely, some cows just wont stick that way. id cut my loses and replace her with something that will calve with the rest of the cows.

 

[slick4591]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I'm checking myself on this one because she gave me a $3k bull calf and I felt like she deserved another shot at it. The tech wanted me to ship her when I told him about the c-section but changed his tune when I told him what her just 7 month old calf brought. I know there's lots of different situations and thoughts about this, so I'm just checking myself.

 

[greybeard]

Well, you're the only one that knows if it all pencils out. A $3k bull calf is great as long as the vet's c section bill, the AI, and 9 months of maintenance, and your time and worry doesn't exceed what ya got for that calf.
I kept one 1st time heifer that produced a dead calf last year, and tho she bred right back, any trouble at all this time --she's gone.

 

[slick4591]

Even with the vet's bill I came out pretty good on the calf. So, if she can give me calves like that one I got to figure she's worth a few extra bucks to see if she's salvageable. If not, then it's sale barn bound for her.

 

[cow pollinater]

$3,000 for a niche market bull is not that much. I pay more than that for angus/hereford/balancer bulls and they are readily available.
I think I'd ship anything that had to have a calf cut out. Especially if they didn't breed back.

 

[slick4591]

$3,000 for a niche market bull is not that much. I pay more than that for angus/hereford/balancer bulls and they are readily available.
I think I'd ship anything that had to have a calf cut out. Especially if they didn't breed back.

I knew that I was at the lower end, but right off the cow, I thought I did pretty well. At least well enough to spend a few extra bucks on her. Another question for you, CP. Does it make a difference the reason it was cut out, or just the fact she was cut on?

 

[regolith]

I deleted my previous reply to this but it's still worth making the point.
You set up a synch programme based on a standing heat observed in a cow supposed to be pregnant. Did you *verify* that she was open (not a false heat) before synching her, because if it was a false heat it's no fault of hers that she's not pregnant now.
Second point, is that at this stage she could be on her 4th cycle from 1 September, you're giving her the second chance since that date. This is not helping your calving season at all, if you have one, or her efficiency.
The decision on the heifer is yours to make. But it might be helpful to look more closely at the management factors involved.

 

[slick4591]

I deleted my previous reply to this but it's still worth making the point.
You set up a synch programme based on a standing heat observed in a cow supposed to be pregnant. Did you *verify* that she was open (not a false heat) before synching her, because if it was a false heat it's no fault of hers that she's not pregnant now.
Second point, is that at this stage she could be on her 4th cycle from 1 September, you're giving her the second chance since that date. This is not helping your calving season at all, if you have one, or her efficiency.
The decision on the heifer is yours to make. But it might be helpful to look more closely at the management factors involved.

Point taken. She was confirmed bred along with the other two, but a month or so behind them. With the few that I have I'm not dead set on a "season". Yes, she was confirmed open prior to being set up for the first AI. Thirty days after the breeding date I was able to pull blood and that's when the lab told me she was still open. Took her in to a different tech that day. I don't have any techs that will come out for just the few I have so I have to trailer them to the tech, and that means an appointment on their schedule and not the cow's. I'm trying, I really am.

 

[Taurus]

Perhaps she isn't meant to be a cow. She is getting less reliable and if she was my cow, I'd gladly take her to the sale barn, asking for a killing price and I will come home with extra $$$ in my pocket.

 

[slick4591]

That's the plan if she doesn't stick this time, Taurus.

 

[cow pollinater]

$3,000 for a niche market bull is not that much. I pay more than that for angus/hereford/balancer bulls and they are readily available.
I think I'd ship anything that had to have a calf cut out. Especially if they didn't breed back.

I knew that I was at the lower end, but right off the cow, I thought I did pretty well. At least well enough to spend a few extra bucks on her. Another question for you, CP. Does it make a difference the reason it was cut out, or just the fact she was cut on?

The fact that she didn't deliver a calf on her own for ANY reason would matter tremendously to me if I were a potential customer. I guess you could take the position of being a small time producer where every animal with papers and a uterus is a good animal and breed to improve and I would halfheartedly nod and not give you to much trouble given the amount of breeding stock in your choice of cattle but reproducing cattle that have to have c-sections is just a bad, bad way to get started.

 

[regolith]

Good to know my point wasn't needed.
It's tough not having a tech or quality bull close by; obviously a commercial operation wouldn't be making a lot of profit if that was their situation.

I agree with cp btw. Sometimes it's not the reason why something happened, but just the fact that it did. Over time, I find that very often cows that are given a second chance fail again; even per example when my bulls failed to get the stragglers in calf two years ago the ones I gave a second chance mostly took at least two services to get pregnant, this year I'm on the second cycle of AI and looking sideways at some of those same cows, already returned for a second insemination.

 

[Taurus]

The fact that she didn't deliver a calf on her own for ANY reason would matter tremendously to me if I were a potential customer. I guess you could take the position of being a small time producer where every animal with papers and a uterus is a good animal and breed to improve and I would halfheartedly nod and not give you to much trouble given the amount of breeding stock in your choice of cattle but reproducing cattle that have to have c-sections is just a bad, bad way to get started.

:nod:

 

[slick4591]

The fact that she didn't deliver a calf on her own for ANY reason would matter tremendously to me if I were a potential customer. I guess you could take the position of being a small time producer where every animal with papers and a uterus is a good animal and breed to improve and I would halfheartedly nod and not give you to much trouble given the amount of breeding stock in your choice of cattle but reproducing cattle that have to have c-sections is just a bad, bad way to get started.

The reason I was asking is the calf's presentation was one where both front legs were crossed, which threw his head above the birth canal. That turned it up and back and I couldn't correct it. I had a hard time placing the blame on the heifer so that factors in my decision. Sounds like I was probably wrong, but had I been able to push the calf back enough for a natural delivery, would your mind change?

Since I'm still learning I would like to know why you, as a customer, would be hesitant about purchasing a c-sec offspring? It didn't seem to bother the buyer in my situation and I think he's a pretty experienced cattleman. And yes, as a really small farm I have a hard time not giving her a couple of tries, especially with the fact that females of my breed are super hard to come by.

Good to know my point wasn't needed.
It's tough not having a tech or quality bull close by; obviously a commercial operation wouldn't be making a lot of profit if that was their situation.

I agree with cp btw. Sometimes it's not the reason why something happened, but just the fact that it did. Over time, I find that very often cows that are given a second chance fail again; even per example when my bulls failed to get the stragglers in calf two years ago the ones I gave a second chance mostly took at least two services to get pregnant, this year I'm on the second cycle of AI and looking sideways at some of those same cows, already returned for a second insemination.

Your advice is always welcome and appreciated.

 

[slick4591]

Got my Biopryn results this morning and she is pregnant. Now if she'll just hold on and deliver.

 

[glacierridge]

I hope she does!