Gray Simi Cross Calves ?

[Stocker Steve]

I AIed some cows black Simi. The red cows are throwing some gray calves, and one grayish calf with red highlights. I have not seem this with BA. Does simi have a different kind of black color?

 

[Rafter S]

The original Simmentals brought into the US were either red and white or yellow and white. Some Angus influence (I don't know how much) was added to get the black color. So, I'm not a geneticist, but I'm not surprised that you're getting off-colored calves from a Simmental bull on red cows.

 

[Muddy]

I've had grey calves here too but they shed their baby hair and became black.

 

[Stocker Steve]

A have a couple simi cross cows, that have redish brown calves that became black later.
I have not seem gray calves till now.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Get them here too out of tan charx cows, I call them silvers.

And while we're on it, what is the history of turning the old sims solid red and black.. Someone out there must know where they came from.

Wiki says this, But I'd like to know more in detail.. Areas, people, bulls.. etc

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, due to market premiums in the US, there was a strong push to produce Simmental that were black and solid in color pattern. Fortunately for the breed, given that these characteristics are controlled by single genes, the evolution was relatively rapid and straightforward. The bulk of the change was brought about through the use of purebred Simmental sires that carried genes for black and solid color. These sires were the result of a portion of Simmental breeders selecting for these genes in the "breeding up" process during the 70's and 80's.

 

[Lucky_P]

As RafterS stated, Simmentals, as they were when imported to North America starting in the late 1960s, were red or yellow, white-faced, often flowery-spotted cattle. Even when I started using some fullblood and purebred sires, back in the mid-1980s, most were still red or yellow...but the blacks were already making some in-roads...Think I used 'Buck' back around 1987. With an open herdbook and up-breeding program, you could(still can) start with any sort of cow base and breed up to purebred status. While many folks claim that today's black Simmentals are mostly Angus, or that the black coat color came from Angus, that isn't necessarily the case...Most of the cows in my herd trace back, on the maternal side, to one Holstein and a nondescript little black horned cow that I started out breeding to Simmental sires back around 1986...really no Angus influence incorporated until well into the 1990s in my herd.
Solid color came about just by repeated selection against any white on 'em...have even seen a few fullblood Fleckvieh that are now solid red - not a spot of white on them - just from breeding selection pressure against white faces or spotting.

Steve - if you used a BLACK Simmental sire, even if he were hetero black - these gray calves (if they are actually gray, and not just some sort of gray/brown/red 'baby coat' that's gonna shed off to black) had to have gotten the color dilution gene from your 'red' cows. It's hard - if not impossible - to tell for sure if a red cow is a 'diluter' without testing for the gene, but a black animal with the dilution gene will be...diluted...noticeably NOT black.

'Diluted' black-factor cows in my herd... courtesy of some of those old yellow sires used in the 1980s...run the gamut from white like a Charolais, to silver to dark charcoal, to chocolate brown to mocha. And, one cow family carries the 'wild-type' color gene... giving me some brindling and red points on ears and some red highlights on the back and sides, on black cows- kinda like some of those old black Jerseys or Tarentaise, etc. Don't currently have any 'diluted' red cows in the herd, but back in the 90s, most of 'em were orange or yellow & spotted, with white faces.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Steve - if you used a BLACK Simmental sire, even if he were hetero black - these gray calves (if they are actually gray, and not just some sort of gray/brown/red 'baby coat' that's gonna shed off to black) had to have gotten the color dilution gene from your 'red' cows. It's hard - if not impossible - to tell for sure if a red cow is a 'diluter' without testing for the gene, but a black animal with the dilution gene will be...diluted...noticeably NOT black.quote]

Thanks much for the detail.
The sires are black.
I have seen the brown/red baby coat going to black before. Got another one today.
I will let you know how the "grays" turn out. I have a put together cow herd so there may be a variety of outcomes.

 

[jcarkie]

I remember all the pink and blue calves that the simmis produced on the cattle around us they were diluters for sure. The red and white painted cows I thought always seemed like good cows but they were pretty framey, they could eat alot.

 

[Supa Dexta]

I found this on the history of Sims in north america, not sure if it gets into the blacks - haven't read nearly far enough yet. A lot of history presented though.

http://simmental-sbl.blogspot.ca/search ... results=50

 

[cowgirl8]

We get a few grey/brown... Got more grey out of simbra when we switched to angus bulls. Today, we only get grey out of a grey cow with the mix we have. Like longhorn skunk tails, that brown is hard to wash out. Keep anything that is grey, you'll get grey out of it half the time...

 

[creekdrive]

We've got a couple this year that are a real different color - not quite sure what to call it. It's sort of grey/brown/red mixture. I don't have a picture of either of them. Both are out of red Limo X cows that came from the same place & a BA bull. We get lots of the brown/red that shed to black, but have never had any quite like this. Hopefully these shed to black as well.

I found this on the history of Sims in north america, not sure if it gets into the blacks - haven't read nearly far enough yet. A lot of history presented though.

http://simmental-sbl.blogspot.ca/search ... results=50

This is a very interesting link! My dad was in college in Olds when the first few Sims were coming. I don't remember if he said it was a class trip or just him & a couple friends from school that took a drive to go & see them. I will have to share this link with him next time I see him.

 

[Simbrah]

Cows may carry the Diluter Gene --which will make them grey or brown

 

[Randi]

Cows may carry the Diluter Gene --which will make them grey or brown

This would be my first thought as well.

 

[Muddy]

Cows may carry the Diluter Gene --which will make them grey or brown

This would be my first thought as well.

Doesn't sounds like these cows are diluter gene carriers. I got grey calves here out of solid black parents, but they always shed their baby hair and became black.

 

[LongLopeSlowHorse]

Get them here too out of tan charx cows, I call them silvers.

And while we're on it, what is the history of turning the old sims solid red and black.. Someone out there must know where they came from.

Wiki says this, But I'd like to know more in detail.. Areas, people, bulls.. etc

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, due to market premiums in the US, there was a strong push to produce Simmental that were black and solid in color pattern. Fortunately for the breed, given that these characteristics are controlled by single genes, the evolution was relatively rapid and straightforward. The bulk of the change was brought about through the use of purebred Simmental sires that carried genes for black and solid color. These sires were the result of a portion of Simmental breeders selecting for these genes in the "breeding up" process during the 70's and 80's.

"These sires were the result of a portion of Simmental breeders selecting for these genes in the "breeding up" process during the 70's and 80's"

Sure it was. And when angus got about a foot taller in very few yrs, the incidental white that still shows up on bellies and bags was caused by recessive 'white' genes in the taller angus cattle selected to grow 'em.....:cowboy:

 

[LongLopeSlowHorse]

this is the part I meant to comment on.............
'"The bulk of the change was brought about through the use of purebred Simmental sires that carried genes for black and solid color."