Gimme your thoughts on Lowline

[artesianspringsfarm]

I love seeing the opinions of the 20 or so guys and gals on here that I can tell know beef, and not just how they do it or were told to do it. I have a small (20 cow with potential for 30-35) MIG operation. Grass fed, grass finished. Right now I have the most rag-tag sorry mix of angus and hereford cows out there and am at that point where I could start sending these to the auction, or great auction in the sky, and start transitioning towards a uniform group of solid cattle that work in my environment. The only problem with that is, there aren't a ton of people with the same environment to learn from (grass-fed, Northeast winters with 10'+ of snow per year, etc.) I'm looking at all these breeds that are considered to be ideal for Grass-fed operations, Devon, Murray Grey, South Poll, etc., and just wondering whether these guys carry any real advantage over the Lowline breed alongside of smaller framed, efficient Angus. I know this is a totally subjective question, but I gotta get off the pot and make my move somehow, so would love to hear the thoughts on here about how to make this transition and what to transition to.

 

[skeeter swatter]

If you get 10 feet of snow a year, you might want to try a giraffe :mrgreen:
Really there are several breeds that could work. You want something medium to small framed, heavy muscled and with high capacity.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

I lied. I guess its actually 15'. At a certain point, we stop counting. http://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/new_york/orwell . To put it another way, Syracuse NY was the snowiest city in the country this year and we are 50 miles northeast of them headed towards the Adirondacks and just East of Lake Ontario. The Lake effect snow pounds us and we usually laugh at how much Syracuse has when we go into the city.

 

[cow pollinater]

If your winters are that bad I'd say you're going to lose efficiency in smaller cattle as the smaller mass makes it harder for them to stay warm but I could be wrong as all I hear about around here is heat stress so I haven't thought about cold much.
Anything lowline that winds up at the salebarn will either get sold to someone local or get bought for pennies as they're so different from what the market is used to seeing. Nobody wants to buy one or two calves that won't match anything else.
On the ones that you are able to fit in to the private treaty sale of grass fed beef, you'd probably do fairly well on sales especially if your customers want smaller cuts. But you'll lose your butt on anything that doesn't fit into that model.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

CP, I thought about the salebarn aspect of changing direction, but I think that I would be 4-8 years of raising my own replacements to get up to full capacity once I buy a good nucleus of seedstock. On the steer side, I know for a fact I can direct market every pound so I'm not concerned there. Once I am at capacity and only keeping the best of the best replacements, I am a little worried about outlets for heifers, but I think the hit I would take at the salebarn versus the hit I take by feeding a bunch of 1400 lbs. crappy cows now would be worth it for me.

 

[glacierridge]

Depending on what kind of meat you want will help you decide too.
Other options you could also consider is Miniature Herefords, Galloway (belted or not) and Highland.
I know that Galloway and Highland breeds are a little more rugged, their breeds were developed in harsher conditions, have pretty solid longevity, and the hairy cattle have less fat and marbling than Lowline or Mini Herfs could have. All breeds would be of smaller scale (Tho I know of some folks that raise robust sized Galloway and Highland, it's not always the case), but some may be a little better suited to your environment.

I think the best thing to do is to research and really dig, maybe talk to some breeders (tho they will all be biased to their breed ;-) )
And see what others locally might also have and see the condition of their animals and see what feeding program they have them on.

 

[cow pollinater]

Another thing to consider, with lowliness your genetic options will be fairly limited. When it's time to buy a new bull you may be stuck with something that isn't worth having just because it's a lowline. That might not be the case where you're at but it would be the reality here in CA.
If you go angus or Hereford you've got lots of options on how to breed them. You can get pretty specific about what traits work and don't work for you and still have plenty of bulls available. If you're going to direct sell beef to a customer the ability to choose genetics is a huge impact on your business.

 

[glacierridge]

An old co-worker of mine and my uncle would swear by BueLingo for a grass finishing beef program, I don't know how they are with extreme environments tho.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

CP, As you can probably guess Upstate NY is not a beef mecca. The problem here is there are mostly herds full of glorified culls, or the flipside of culls, show cows that take shovels full of silage or grain to fill out. There are few herds of solid genetics with easy-fleshing, consistent cows, but you are right in guessing that there is still a greater selection of decent Angus genetics than there are of some of these "high efficiency" breeds. I do not plan on using AI, so I do worry about my genetic options if I were to get into too small of a genetic "pool" with a breed like Devon or MG.

 

[presmudjo]

www.eightoclockranch.com/ is a place to check out. They sell grass fed animals. The barton's own the farm behind where I grew up. Kendrew Corners is where I grew up, and graduated Heuvelton Central School. I left in 1985, went back in fall 1989 and left again mid 1991. But I do remember the ice storm of 1991. In the snow belt, they got snow one of those years that was up to the electric lines. Saw the pictures, some was drift, but still, holey crap! That was north of Watertown and for the life of me can't remember where that was at, but I bet you aren't far from it.

 

[Taurus]

Another thing to consider, with lowliness your genetic options will be fairly limited. When it's time to buy a new bull you may be stuck with something that isn't worth having just because it's a lowline. That might not be the case where you're at but it would be the reality here in CA.
If you go angus or Hereford you've got lots of options on how to breed them. You can get pretty specific about what traits work and don't work for you and still have plenty of bulls available. If you're going to direct sell beef to a customer the ability to choose genetics is a huge impact on your business.

:nod: and you have to considering the fact that Lowline cattle is just a hobby breed to most folks and it might be difficult for you to looking for a quality Lowline bull that meet your needs if you don't want to learn how to A.I.

That said, there's few lines of Hereford cattle that can fit in your program. All you needs is a good bull on your existing herd..you know you don't have to get rid of your "sorry rag" cows.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

Taurus, Can you rattle off some lines for me start looking at? I don't know much about Beef genetics (A reformed dairy guy), but I used to love understanding the dairy equivalents of EPD's and knowing the big families, etc. Thanks guys for all the thoughts. Presmu, I'm a young duffer, born in 84, but I remember being without power for a few days in 91, 93, and we had it again in 07. We get at least one 48" snowstorm every year. That being said, and getting a little off topic, we have a lean-to for the cows off of our barn, but we feed outside and they rarely use the lean-to. They head for tiny patch of woods in a low spot if they need a windbreak. Last winter was tough, but that was more about forage quality than the weather.

 

[robert]

CP, As you can probably guess Upstate NY is not a beef mecca. The problem here is there are mostly herds full of glorified culls, or the flipside of culls, show cows that take shovels full of silage or grain to fill out. There are few herds of solid genetics with easy-fleshing, consistent cows, but you are right in guessing that there is still a greater selection of decent Angus genetics than there are of some of these "high efficiency" breeds. I do not plan on using AI, so I do worry about my genetic options if I were to get into too small of a genetic "pool" with a breed like Devon or MG.

I think you need to get out more. There are lots of good herds in NY run by people who know what they're doing, seedstock and commercial, several post on here. What's a 'high efficiency' breed? Something that came from somewhere else with all the bs and hype strapped to it looking for the next sucker? Raise what you want, sell to who you want but you don't build up a business by tearing down others.........

 

[AllForage]

I love seeing the opinions of the 20 or so guys and gals on here that I can tell know beef, and not just how they do it or were told to do it. I have a small (20 cow with potential for 30-35) MIG operation. Grass fed, grass finished. Right now I have the most rag-tag sorry mix of angus and hereford cows out there and am at that point where I could start sending these to the auction, or great auction in the sky, and start transitioning towards a uniform group of solid cattle that work in my environment. The only problem with that is, there aren't a ton of people with the same environment to learn from (grass-fed, Northeast winters with 10'+ of snow per year, etc.) I'm looking at all these breeds that are considered to be ideal for Grass-fed operations, Devon, Murray Grey, South Poll, etc., and just wondering whether these guys carry any real advantage over the Lowline breed alongside of smaller framed, efficient Angus. I know this is a totally subjective question, but I gotta get off the pot and make my move somehow, so would love to hear the thoughts on here about how to make this transition and what to transition to.

Been marketing grass fed for over ten years now. Throw the sales barn scare tactics out the window. My cull cows are turned into high dollar ground that would make most here angry. Very little from your operation should end up at a barn except dinks or puds that would be discounted no matter what. The beauty of direct marketing is the ability to step out from the mainstream and only concern yourself with you and your cattle.

What I have learned is the largest driving force of profit (as long as hay is made not bought) is hanging weights coupled with price. You either hit the sweet spot on weights or you price yourself to make the lower ones work. Research credible hanging weights on 24 month old lowlines and calculate from there. Honestly there is absolutely no need to invest in "mini" or smaller breeds for grass fed. frames 3.5-5 work fine. I would look into older linebred lines of the english breeds. It is more important to understand the bloodlines than brag on a breed. Old Hereford lines and Angus are perfect. PLan on traveling to start your herd but it will be well worth it. Highland, Galloway take too long and do not marble as well. And the other minor English breeds are too pricey and have very little prepotency from vast outcrossing. Linebred stock with grassfed is essential in my opinion to insure consistency.

Hope this helps.....

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

It helps immensely. In fact, I planned on turning one or two into ground in another month or so. Thanks for validating the thought.

 

[tsmaxx47]

artesian, where you located? I plan to be in Skaneateles over labor day if you're in the area.......

 

[glacierridge]

I love seeing the opinions of the 20 or so guys and gals on here that I can tell know beef, and not just how they do it or were told to do it. I have a small (20 cow with potential for 30-35) MIG operation. Grass fed, grass finished. Right now I have the most rag-tag sorry mix of angus and hereford cows out there and am at that point where I could start sending these to the auction, or great auction in the sky, and start transitioning towards a uniform group of solid cattle that work in my environment. The only problem with that is, there aren't a ton of people with the same environment to learn from (grass-fed, Northeast winters with 10'+ of snow per year, etc.) I'm looking at all these breeds that are considered to be ideal for Grass-fed operations, Devon, Murray Grey, South Poll, etc., and just wondering whether these guys carry any real advantage over the Lowline breed alongside of smaller framed, efficient Angus. I know this is a totally subjective question, but I gotta get off the pot and make my move somehow, so would love to hear the thoughts on here about how to make this transition and what to transition to.

Been marketing grass fed for over ten years now. Throw the sales barn scare tactics out the window. My cull cows are turned into high dollar ground that would make most here angry. Very little from your operation should end up at a barn except dinks or puds that would be discounted no matter what. The beauty of direct marketing is the ability to step out from the mainstream and only concern yourself with you and your cattle.

What I have learned is the largest driving force of profit (as long as hay is made not bought) is hanging weights coupled with price. You either hit the sweet spot on weights or you price yourself to make the lower ones work. Research credible hanging weights on 24 month old lowlines and calculate from there. Honestly there is absolutely no need to invest in "mini" or smaller breeds for grass fed. frames 3.5-5 work fine. I would look into older linebred lines of the english breeds. It is more important to understand the bloodlines than brag on a breed. Old Hereford lines and Angus are perfect. PLan on traveling to start your herd but it will be well worth it. Highland, Galloway take too long and do not marble as well. And the other minor English breeds are too pricey and have very little prepotency from vast outcrossing. Linebred stock with grassfed is essential in my opinion to insure consistency.

Hope this helps.....

Yes, Highland and Galloway do have a slower growing and leaner carcass, just depends if lean is the goal.
I agree, the Angus and Hereford breeds are champion breeds to have marbled grass finished beef.

 

[AllForage]

I love seeing the opinions of the 20 or so guys and gals on here that I can tell know beef, and not just how they do it or were told to do it. I have a small (20 cow with potential for 30-35) MIG operation. Grass fed, grass finished. Right now I have the most rag-tag sorry mix of angus and hereford cows out there and am at that point where I could start sending these to the auction, or great auction in the sky, and start transitioning towards a uniform group of solid cattle that work in my environment. The only problem with that is, there aren't a ton of people with the same environment to learn from (grass-fed, Northeast winters with 10'+ of snow per year, etc.) I'm looking at all these breeds that are considered to be ideal for Grass-fed operations, Devon, Murray Grey, South Poll, etc., and just wondering whether these guys carry any real advantage over the Lowline breed alongside of smaller framed, efficient Angus. I know this is a totally subjective question, but I gotta get off the pot and make my move somehow, so would love to hear the thoughts on here about how to make this transition and what to transition to.

Been marketing grass fed for over ten years now. Throw the sales barn scare tactics out the window. My cull cows are turned into high dollar ground that would make most here angry. Very little from your operation should end up at a barn except dinks or puds that would be discounted no matter what. The beauty of direct marketing is the ability to step out from the mainstream and only concern yourself with you and your cattle.

What I have learned is the largest driving force of profit (as long as hay is made not bought) is hanging weights coupled with price. You either hit the sweet spot on weights or you price yourself to make the lower ones work. Research credible hanging weights on 24 month old lowlines and calculate from there. Honestly there is absolutely no need to invest in "mini" or smaller breeds for grass fed. frames 3.5-5 work fine. I would look into older linebred lines of the english breeds. It is more important to understand the bloodlines than brag on a breed. Old Hereford lines and Angus are perfect. PLan on traveling to start your herd but it will be well worth it. Highland, Galloway take too long and do not marble as well. And the other minor English breeds are too pricey and have very little prepotency from vast outcrossing. Linebred stock with grassfed is essential in my opinion to insure consistency.

Hope this helps.....

Yes, Highland and Galloway do have a slower growing and leaner carcass, just depends if lean is the goal.
I agree, the Angus and Hereford breeds are champion breeds to have marbled grass finished beef.

Pet peeve of mine is promoting lean when by nature grass fed is lean. This is where most of the problems and criticism originates. In my opinion striving for well marbled grass fed should be all producer's goal as it hedges against poor cooking and helps with flavor. Now turning those other breeds into baldies with Anxiety 4th bulls has made me a lot of great beef.

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

CP, As you can probably guess Upstate NY is not a beef mecca. The problem here is there are mostly herds full of glorified culls, or the flipside of culls, show cows that take shovels full of silage or grain to fill out. There are few herds of solid genetics with easy-fleshing, consistent cows, but you are right in guessing that there is still a greater selection of decent Angus genetics than there are of some of these "high efficiency" breeds. I do not plan on using AI, so I do worry about my genetic options if I were to get into too small of a genetic "pool" with a breed like Devon or MG.

I think you need to get out more. There are lots of good herds in NY run by people who know what they're doing, seedstock and commercial, several post on here. What's a 'high efficiency' breed? Something that came from somewhere else with all the bs and hype strapped to it looking for the next sucker? Raise what you want, sell to who you want but you don't build up a business by tearing down others.........

Robert, my goal wasn't to step on any toes; I'm only reporting what I have seen. Would you mind letting me know of some NY seedstock producers selling animals that are bred for what I'm aiming to accomplish? I have seen a few NY'ers on here who raise some gorgeous, monstrous animals but who just don't fit what I'm going for. When I say high-efficiency animals, I just mean what All Forage said so much better. I'm looking for cows that can sustain themselves and look good on decent grass and hay only, and throw calves that truly finish out instead of just eventually "get heavy enough"

 

[artesianspringsfarm]

artesian, where you located? I plan to be in Skaneateles over labor day if you're in the area.......

TSMAXX, Im about an hour north and a little east of Skaneateles. I just had a baby and will probably be processing some chickens that weekend but will probably make it down to Syracuse for a chicken drop-off at some point over that weekend and there's some great watering holes in the area.