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Frame 10 Angus breeders out there?

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gaurus

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Are there any Frame 10 Angus breeders out there?

While researching on the history of the Angus breed, I saw the at one point on the 80s there were huge frame sized Angus, for example the one on the link below
1988. "Dameron Linedrive." Denver Grand Champion Angus Bull. Weighed 2527 lbs at 32 mos. of age. He was a Frame 10+ bull.


Compared to 1955. "BPR Eileenmere." Crowning the Supreme Champion, All-American Angus Futurity, 1955.
 

farmguy

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What frame size do you prefer? Recent research regarding frame size and total income and profit I found to be interesting. I would like a mature cow size of about 1100 to 1200 lbs. This would be a frame of about 4 to 5, is that correct? thanks farmguy
 

elkwc

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Like Gizmom I prefer 5.0-6.0. I want nothing below 5.0 but will accept a low six frame.
 

sim.-ang.king

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farmguy":3red6lzg said:
What frame size do you prefer? Recent research regarding frame size and total income and profit I found to be interesting. I would like a mature cow size of about 1100 to 1200 lbs. This would be a frame of about 4 to 5, is that correct? thanks farmguy
You want a frame size your environment, and feed stocks can support first and foremost. Smaller frame doesn't always equal more $$$.
 

gizmom

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That is why I preach moderate, just look back to the belt buckle cattle of the 50's and what happened in the 80's. Chase fads and that is what you get. The 90's started the hunt for carcass and oh my goodness some of those high dollar beef cows during that period were pencil gutted maternal nothings. They couldn't eat enough to keep condition on them and breeding back was about impossible...but heck she is one of the top carcass cows in the breed. Been there done that, it is the truth that you learn more from your mistakes than you do your success. I think it is because the mistakes cost so dang much!

gizmom
 

elkwc

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gizmom":23fgozu7 said:
That is why I preach moderate, just look back to the belt buckle cattle of the 50's and what happened in the 80's. Chase fads and that is what you get. The 90's started the hunt for carcass and oh my goodness some of those high dollar beef cows during that period were pencil gutted maternal nothings. They couldn't eat enough to keep condition on them and breeding back was about impossible...but heck she is one of the top carcass cows in the breed. Been there done that, it is the truth that you learn more from your mistakes than you do your success. I think it is because the mistakes cost so dang much!

gizmom

Gizmom the issue I see is "moderate" isn't defined so what is moderate to one breeder maybe too extreme for another. I have looked at several herds of several breeds over the last 3-4 years. Almost every breeder calls his cattle moderate. I've seen mature cattle from frame 3 to frame 7 all called moderate. I saw a cow that a major breeder sold as moderate that weighed over 1,700 in grass condition. Anymore I ask a breeder what frame size his cattle are as the term "moderate" covers too wide a range.
 

Son of Butch

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elkwc":b6thu46t said:
gizmom":b6thu46t said:
That is why I preach moderate....
Gizmom the issue I see is "moderate" isn't defined so what is moderate to one breeder maybe too extreme for another.
Moderate is easily defined with a bell curve.
The farther to either edge for any given trait the more extreme or a curve bender.
Any breeder that would call those moderate is either misinformed or a liar and there are plenty of both around.
 

farmerjan

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When I was doing relief breeding in the 80's for select sires, there were alot of angus breeders with cattle so tall I practically needed a step stool to reach them! They did look like black Chi's and had the dispositions to go along with it. They ate like hogs and still had trouble keeping weight on. The holstein breed did the same, and they are now coming back to a more moderate size. Bigger was equated to eating more, making more milk, having bigger calves....more money????? So you say what is moderate, but that is subjective. Most would agree that it is in the 4-7 with 5-6 being about average. Personally I like a cow in the 1100 +/- lb size. They seem to do best on our pastures, have a calf in the 70-90 lb range. No calving problems, make plenty of milk on decent pasture, and breed back. And we have no problem selling the calves in the 450-550 lb size. But that is us. Have a neighbor that regularly has cows in the 1500 plus size. He also has alot more feet and leg problems than we do.
The last 6 cows that we shipped 3 weeks ago, were 990 to 1180 lbs. 4 blks - angus x, 2 red wf crossbreds. They all were older than dirt, 4 had no teeth, 1 had nubs and 1 was short mouth but she was high headed. They were all open, we had sold calves off them about a month before. If they had been bred they would still be here, but I suspected this group would have some opens since there were alot of OLD cows there. All but one were in very decent shape for their age and the time of year.
We just bought 10 breds at a sale and 2 were 1500+ lbs. We'll see how they do. The rest were a bit smaller, in the 1150-1300 lb size.
 

farmerjan

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Son of Butch; there were several that questioned the use of Chi's in the angus back then. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some used and not "mentioned". Same as some were using some red holstein in the guernsey breed for awhile....
 

Son of Butch

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farmerjan":1lblpalc said:
Son of Butch; there were several that questioned the use of Chi's in the angus back then. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some used and not "mentioned". Same as some were using some red holstein in the guernsey breed for awhile....
There was a proposal to allow Red Holstein blood into an upgraded Guernsey breed registration to widen the gene base and bring in much need chest width and front end strength. The vast majority of Guernsey breeders had major conniption fits and now one of the great breeds has pretty much died out for their refusal to adapt.
 

farmerjan

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One of the problems the guernsey breeders got into was trying to breed for increased milk at the expense of the frame and sturdiness of the old style guernseys. They were more of a coarse, raw-boned breed way back. Then there was this big thing to breed them to be "dairy"; and that is what really did so much damage by not keeping the frame and trying to make them something they were not. They got too frail and narrow-chested...you're right. But the "old style" ones that my family had before I was born, and that many of the old-timers had were not the "pretty" show cows that seemed to be the trend. The couple that I had way back in the early 80's were good sized cows and had butterfat in the 5% range, but they were not milk wagons. And they were all using the same basic bulls so you are right also; they had narrowed the gene pool to where so many were too closely related. There is very little "out-cross" bloodlines even today. My favourite dairy breed is guernsey, and hate the fancy ones today.
I know that there was some red holstein used in the guernseys, but it didn't get recorded....
Part of it was that they were needing to get more production to compete with the holstein dairies. And the whole thing of "FAT IS BAD" so they lost the advantage of the "Golden Guernsey" trademark that highlighted the butterfat. Nowadays, it is the A2/A2 protein and the increased beta-carotene in the milk that they should be promoting....but the dairy industry doesn't want that to be a cornerstone, just like we cannot market milk as 96.5% FAT FREE instead of saying it is "whole milk" @ 3.5% fat; or saying it is 99% fat free instead of saying it is 1% fat....Everything else can be marketed as "FAT FREE" and all that...
 

farmguy

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Many years ago we had a neighbor would had a Holstein milk herd and the also had a small herd of registered Angus that was his plan for retirement. This was the great race for size was starting. Interesting enough his registered Angus bulls changed shape and I went to his sale after he developed health issues. His registered cows were much taller and many had a white naval. Just saying, farmguy
 

WalnutCrest

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Farmer Jan ... why would you think the dairy industry doesn't want to promote beta carotene and the A2 status? IMO it's because some breeds don't have as much of that as other breeds, and those that don't are holding up progress.

And regarding cattle judging and the negative impact it has on castle breeds, I heard one guy say that if he were in charge all judges would be drawn and quartered for the damage they've done to functional cattle traits.
 

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