Fertilizer Usage?

highgrit
Most of the clover you see is arrowleaf or a variety of ladino. I actually am getting too much clover and I have been seeding more fescue after grazing the clover extremely short. The herd will move ever 24 hours.

kenny thomas
I have been doing rotational grazing for eleven plus years. I went to year round rotational grazing shortly after going to rotational grazing. The actual dates are getting fuzzy with passing time.

Howdyjabo
I have some sericea lespedza and it works for me. Vetch is also a plant that I like. Chicken litter goes a long way for improving the worn out soils of the South. Rotational grazing and frequent movement of the cattle helps more than most folks realize. Profitable is improved even more with the reduction of input costs. Done properly, the carrying capacity of the pastures will conservatively increase 30% + and the profit before tax per brood cow will more than double. There are a lot of people on this site that think I am overstating the benefits but actually I tend to understate.
 
agmantoo":27pgnveg said:
highgrit
Rotational grazing and frequent movement of the cattle helps more than most folks realize. Profitable is improved even more with the reduction of input costs. Done properly, the carrying capacity of the pastures will conservatively increase 30% + and the profit before tax per brood cow will more than double. There are a lot of people on this site that think I am overstating the benefits but actually I tend to understate.

How frequent is frequent movement?

Do you lime or and other inputs?

Are there any special situations where you can justify commercial N fertilizer?
 
Stocker Steve":12r6kc6p said:
agmantoo":12r6kc6p said:
highgrit
Rotational grazing and frequent movement of the cattle helps more than most folks realize. Profitable is improved even more with the reduction of input costs. Done properly, the carrying capacity of the pastures will conservatively increase 30% + and the profit before tax per brood cow will more than double. There are a lot of people on this site that think I am overstating the benefits but actually I tend to understate.

How frequent is frequent movement?

I check on the cattle daily using an ATV to get to them. The cattle are shifted to new forage then. Total time spent in the relocation is no more than 12 to 15 minutes. I attribute the efficiency of my operation to the layout and the techniques I have learned from time and exposure plus mistakes. Once visitors view the farm, they sometimes seem in awe at how simple the rotational grazing operation functions

Do you lime or and other inputs?

Liming the acid soil here is critical. I strive to keep the PH above 5.8. The "other inputs" to the soil is I spread chicken litter obtained from a relative. Unfortunately I only have access to enough chicken litter to apply to 20% of the forage land per year. I hire soil testing by a professional firm and try to stay within their recommendations. Lots of legumes are grown to contribute to the nitrogen needs. Only newly converted tree land going into pasture gets commercial fertilizer initially.

Are there any special situations where you can justify commercial N fertilizer?
No. When I ceased to apply commercial fertilizer (I was budgeting 1/4 of the gross income from the feeder calf sales) I was very uncertain if I could continue status quo. I actually planned on reducing the herd size if necessary. Fortunately with the chicken litter and cow manure, along with the legume contribution, the fertility has held. I do spread the cattle waste to keep the fertility as uniform as possible. I have experienced a major increase in the number of earth worms seen along with the overall condition of the soil becoming more mellow. (red clay is dominate here)
 
I did a lot of "digging" on #DM/#N. I buy into Voisin' Grass Productivity observation that you can extend the season with N on cool soil. So I usually hit it in April (we don't get much grass till mid May) and special situations.

I did use turkey litter before the goverment told people to burn it. We can still get beet lime here which contains alot of sulfur. I think giving up on alfalfa, buying in beet lime, buying in hay, and some shallow tillage is sustainable.

I am doing my taxes and I spent more fertilizer deductions than I should have last year... It was wet last year and by fall I could buy hay much cheaper than I could buy chemical fertilizer. It costs money to feed hay, and cheap hay does not have the food value of good grass, but I am getting better at appreciating green cattle and sligging ****.

I think you can operate differently once you get ph / fertility up to a certain level and have enough cattle to till the land. One of the most interesting comments I have heard recently is that increasing stocking rate increased forage production. :shock: So I am all in on cattle and praying for rain. :nod:
 
Stocker Steve

Your statement
I plan to fertilize a couple paddocks on the stocker farm in April, and make the cows eat cheap hay on the other farm until mid May. I think you can operate differently once you get fertility up to a certain level and have enough cattle to till the land. One of the most interesting comments I have heard recently is that increasing stocking rate increased forage production. :shock: We need to be sustainable!

Because of our significant location differences and my response on N was only based on my location, I may not have done justice to your question regarding N.

In the Spring, even early Spring such as the current time period, my pastures will become very productive to the point that I will have excessive forage so I do not apply N. I do not make hay. Therefore I have no requirement to add commercial N. There are at other times of year when the productivity increase of forage would be an advantage but the growing season is not there for the forage crops that I grow so again there would be no gain for added N. This is why I stockpile late Spring fescue and clip seed heads to lengthen the growing season of the fescue to get me through July and August. Come September with rain, the fescue will again become productive and I can amass enough stockpiled Fescue without adding N to last my 90+ day Winter. IMO, You need to concentrate on maximizing the forages that are best suited for your location. Some of these issues are hard to overcome.
Without the nearly stagnate periods which I referenced above I feel that I could increase herd head count by not less than 25 to 30%. I cannot balance the herd size to the acreage/forage that I have. The only solution to me that surfaces is to feed hay and I do not want to have that task. Sustainability in normal non drought years is for me to have 1.4 acres per cow/calf for the entire year.
 
Applying N and then making beef cow hay does not pencil out well here. I do plan to try some foliar feeding this summer.
I have tried feeding alfalfa hay on pasture to cover slumps. This good stocker type hay is hard to make, expensive, and usually used in a dairy. I think making a little balage during the spring flush is the best if you can rent a wrapper.
 
We do sometimes give some of our pastures a kick with liquid hog manure. The barn is on-site, and we use a drag-line system, so compaction is minimized, and it's a lot cheaper than hauling a tanker around.

When we first started doing that we saw huge gains in extra grass. On our most productive ground I don't think we gain much more grass production now by adding N. We have the grazing rotation working, and a good bottom of native perennial legumes. We have clay-loam and silty clay-loam with a pH between 6.9 and 7.4. Our long-term pasture fields are approaching 8% OM, so in the years when we have adequate moisture there is a huge pool of nitrogen tied up in that soil OM that provides adequate fertility to the grass fraction of our forage mix.

Where we need to kick-start things we bale-graze cows in the winter. It would take us 20 years to cover all of our ground that way, so if there are any real problem spots the hog manure is still a good option. We can put 3-4000 gal/ac of finishing manure on for $20-$30/ac using our drag-line system. That easily pencils out. To spread commercial fertilizer N would cost us at least 2X that at todays prices, and we still would be adding the phosphate, potash, sulfur, or micros that come in the manure. I don't think I could afford to run a fertility program based on commercial fertilizer.

As for favourite species, I like Reed Canarygrass, but having hog manure sure makes it easy to love such an N-responsive species. Mixtures of smooth brome, orchardgrass (even though we have to force the cows to eat the stuff) and tall fescue seem to work pretty good here. There is also some quackgrass, bluegrass and timothy kicking around here, but none of those are a major part of the species mix.
 
Supporting what fargus posted some years back North Carolina pork producers reported achieving a 2000 lb gain of cattle flesh per acre in a calender year. This was achieved in the eastern part of the state using an irrigation system to pump lagoon waste on the forage. I do not recall the type forage nor the amount of nutrient.

Fargus,
A related question.......once you achieve the nutrient level you desire on a parcel of grazed only ground how long with that nutrient last before having to add more lagoon waste?
 
Just an interesting tidbit for you guys.
It's been awhile so I may not get this exactly right, but it's pretty close. Negatives attract positives as we all know. Nuturents in the soil and fertilizer are positivies while the ground is a negative. Some microbes in the ground are positive, and the further south you go the more positives and less negatives there are.
When you fertilize, the positives of the fert attach to the negatives of the ground until the plant picks them off as needed. In the south the fertilizer leaches away faster than in the north. I don't really remember what the numbers are, but in Minn. and Iowa the numbers are like 750,000, in Northern Mo. 350,000, and in the southeast US, the number is like 300. That's why in the Carolinas and Georgia they fertilize the bermuda grass several times a year, as the plant must use it almost immedieatly, and in the north they just fert once or maybe twice a year, because it will hang around waiting to be used.
In Canada the number may be even higher than Minn., that's why some grass is better with less inputs in some areas than others. It all has to do with asteroids and glaciers thousands of years ago. This may not be exactly right, don't want to look it all up, but can you believe a plumber had to know all this at one time, just to get a licence to put in sewers? Sorry for the sicence lesson, gs
 
plumber_greg":3a7de4my said:
Just an interesting tidbit for you guys.
It's been awhile so I may not get this exactly right, but it's pretty close. Negatives attract positives as we all know. Nuturents in the soil and fertilizer are positivies while the ground is a negative. Some microbes in the ground are positive, and the further south you go the more positives and less negatives there are.
When you fertilize, the positives of the fert attach to the negatives of the ground until the plant picks them off as needed. In the south the fertilizer leaches away faster than in the north. I don't really remember what the numbers are, but in Minn. and Iowa the numbers are like 750,000, in Northern Mo. 350,000, and in the southeast US, the number is like 300. That's why in the Carolinas and Georgia they fertilize the bermuda grass several times a year, as the plant must use it almost immedieatly, and in the north they just fert once or maybe twice a year, because it will hang around waiting to be used.
In Canada the number may be even higher than Minn., that's why some grass is better with less inputs in some areas than others. It all has to do with asteroids and glaciers thousands of years ago. This may not be exactly right, don't want to look it all up, but can you believe a plumber had to know all this at one time, just to get a licence to put in sewers? Sorry for the sicence lesson, gs
That's the science but do you suppose part of it may have to do with bermuda doesn;t grow well in colder climates and colder climate grasses don;t do as well in the south?
 
Leaching in the south has more to do with the composition of the soil, sand or clay. Temps. may also have an effect as far as N is concerned.
The expansive clays in the South are negitively charged thus have an attraction for the positively charged water. This is what causes the soil to swell when it gets wet.
 
By adding as much manure as we have, and good rotational grazing (take half, leave half) we are able to bring our OM up. That took 20+ years to achieve. It isn't muck or peat soil, it is mineral soil. The other thing to keep in mind is that perennial forages are the best topsoil builder out there, better even then forest cover.

The fastest way to increase soil OM is to lie about it, the next fastest is to raise yields.

We're going on three years since we spread manure on our most productive piece of ground, and we haven't seen a decline yet. I'm going to leave it for a bit yet. The phosphorus and potash levels will be good, the next time we see a kick it will be from the N.
 
fargus":27hhun59 said:
The other thing to keep in mind is that perennial forages are the best topsoil builder out there, better even then forest cover.The fastest way to increase soil OM is to lie about it, the next fastest is to raise yields.

I saw an article recently where they had continuous no till corn for a number of years but could not show any significant OM increase. Did not seem right, but there was some speculation about the litter on top was oxidizing. Maybe they need trained cows to walk up and down each row for incorporation. ;-) I guess the good news is that OM did not go down.

I have seen several mob grazing presentations where they claimed huge OM increases. One claimed over 1% per year. I think if you pound down enough forage and then soil sample shallow that may work. How may pounds/acre of litter/roots/crap do you need to get a 1% OM increase in the top 6 inches?
 
Stocker Steve":3egu9v1u said:
fargus":3egu9v1u said:
The other thing to keep in mind is that perennial forages are the best topsoil builder out there, better even then forest cover.The fastest way to increase soil OM is to lie about it, the next fastest is to raise yields.

I saw an article recently where they had continuous no till corn for a number of years but could not show any significant OM increase. Did not seem right, but there was some speculation about the litter on top was oxidizing. Maybe they need trained cows to walk up and down each row for incorporation. ;-) I guess the good news is that OM did not go down.

I have seen several mob grazing presentations where they claimed huge OM increases. One claimed over 1% per year. I think if you pound down enough forage and then soil sample shallow that may work. How may pounds/acre of litter/roots/crap do you need to get a 1% OM increase in the top 6 inches?

I've seen the same massive increase 2 months after I used chicken litter but it may have been a sampling anomaly? :(
More to come...
 
shaz":2dbyv92w said:
Stocker Steve":2dbyv92w said:
fargus":2dbyv92w said:
The other thing to keep in mind is that perennial forages are the best topsoil builder out there, better even then forest cover.The fastest way to increase soil OM is to lie about it, the next fastest is to raise yields.

I saw an article recently where they had continuous no till corn for a number of years but could not show any significant OM increase. Did not seem right, but there was some speculation about the litter on top was oxidizing. Maybe they need trained cows to walk up and down each row for incorporation. ;-) I guess the good news is that OM did not go down.

I have seen several mob grazing presentations where they claimed huge OM increases. One claimed over 1% per year. I think if you pound down enough forage and then soil sample shallow that may work. How may pounds/acre of litter/roots/crap do you need to get a 1% OM increase in the top 6 inches?

I've seen the same massive increase 2 months after I used chicken litter but it may have been a sampling anomaly? :(
More to come...


Our levels were pretty average 20 years ago, around 3.5-5% OM. We sample to a depth of 6 inches (assuming the guy running the probe is doing it right. Seeing as that's me, I shouldn't complain too much.) To get a 1% OM increase you need a pile of stuff. I'll try and do the math, but I'm not digging out my soil science notes, so I apologize for any mistakes I might make.

1 acre furrow slice is 43560 sq feet by 6 inches deep. The book value is an estimate of 2 million pounds per acre. A soil with higher bulk density (your clays and clay loams) will be heavier, while your coarser loams and sands will be less. 1% of that is 20,000 lbs. So the quick answer is 10 tons. That doesn't really answer the question though, as you need to increase the soil OM pool by 20,000 lbs/acre, and have it stay that high. A large percentage of soil OM (I think it's about 45-48%) is "short term" and turns over in the soil rapidly.

Rough math again, but if a REALLY good pasture or hay field can produce 8 tons/ac of forage per year, and IF we only harvest half of the above ground portion on each grazing pass, you are adding 8000 lbs of "stuff." Grasses are roughly 80% top, 20% roots, and legumes are 75/25. Most pastures are predominantly grass, so we'll go with 80/20. That's a further 4000 lbs (16,000/0.8 - 16000) of root growth each year. Now, 20% of a plants "carbon assimilation" each year is lost in the form of root exudate. That's the combination of root slime sloughing off, respiration in root tissues, etc. So 16,000 lbs of top + 4,000 lbs = 20,000 lbs of biomass / 0.8 - 20,000 = 5,000 lbs of root exudate. Not all of that is retained in the soil, so call it 4,000 lbs that doesn't immediately gas off. That is a total soil contribution of 16,000 lbs of plant material. So a spike of 0.8 - 1% OM immediately after a mob-grazing pass is certainly possible. I doubt that it stays that high for long. My guess would be if you went and re-sampled that same area 3 months later you would find a negligible impact. (The explanation for that is simple. The way soil labs "measure" OM is to burn the carbon out of a portion of the sample. They measure the CO2 released, and use it calculate OM based on the mass of the sample. If soil OM is 45% carbon the math is simple. The problem is, it doesn't measure what kind of OM you have, only that on that day, in that spot you had X amount of carbon contained in that sample. That's why sampling regularly really helps. It takes out some of the anomalies and lets you see trends. If something seems really out of whack with previous results, it probably is.)

Our most dramatic shift in soil OM over a 15 year span came in a field that got a lot of solid "cow" manure before our system switched around. It had a lot of straw in it, which has a much higher C:N ratio then fresh green plant material, and more lignin. That results in more medium-term storage carbon going in to the soil pool.

It does stand to reason that once-over mob grazing could add more lignin to the mix, as later in the year you are hitting "mature" grasses that are well past their prime and have had a chance to lignify the stalks holding up seed-heads. I still think that good rotational grazing creates more benefits by raising your total forage production per acre, per year more than a once-over mob grazing system can.

On the corn thing I have a simpler explanation. In Ontario's corn belt (which is south of Minnesota) corn on corn suffers a yield penalty, and no-till corn tends to lag tilled acres, typically from cool soil temperatures. No-tilled corn on corn always looks like hell, and yields accordingly in this part of the world. If you give up 40 bu/ac of yield, the book value is you give up 2200 lbs/ac of stover, 900 lbs of root mass, and 1000 lbs/ac of root exudate. That's a lot of stuff NOT going into the soil pool. Tillage burns carbon, but if it's done properly it can result in more yield gain, and more biomass return than the carbon it releases from the soil pool, especially in the northern corn belt.

I think we have probably maxed out around 8% OM. In other words, we've reached a new equilibrium, and barring another major change in management (like going back to row-cropping as a part of our rotation) it should bounce around in that area going forward. The only prediction I will make (and it's safe to make, because I have no soil sample data to disprove me) is that our deep soil OM will continue to go up. Apex vegetation here is northern lowland hardwood. It makes great topsoil, but it's shallow (typically 10-14 inches) and perennial grasses have a much deeper, fibrous root system. It's still going to take us years to build our topsoil any deeper, but it's far more likely under this management plan then under a row-crop rotation.

Hope that's clearer than Mississippi mud.
 

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