feedlot pregnancy

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KNERSIE

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Could it be that they were already breed at weaning and sold to back grounders and no one even knew it?

.....or could it be that too many commercial producers don't know the birthdates of their calves and combined with no defined calving season and general lack of (micro) management the young suckling heifers are exposed to the bull when they are starting to cycle because without knowledge of their age, the producers are guessing when to pull them out of the same pasture as the bull?
 
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KNERSIE

KNERSIE

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Any other ideas?

Alot of cattle going to feedlots aren't produced by people trying to make a living off cattle or atleast try to produce cattle in a profitable way. This leads to lack of knowledge, lack of research or simply lack of common sense. I see it all the time, people also try and think of cattle as having the same moral issues us humans have. They just cannot accept that a bull will breed a heifer sired by him when she's in heat because that is incest in their eyes.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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KNERSIE":3qmscik3 said:
Any other ideas?

Alot of cattle going to feedlots aren't produced by people trying to make a living off cattle or atleast try to produce cattle in a profitable way. This leads to lack of knowledge, lack of research or simply lack of common sense. I see it all the time, people also try and think of cattle as having the same moral issues us humans have. They just cannot accept that a bull will breed a heifer sired by him when she's in heat because that is incest in their eyes.
:lol: :lol: Sad, but sooo true!
A lot of feedlot pregnancies come from pi$$poor management. Some are just simple mistakes - like the teenage pregnancies people find in their own herds. Heifers bred by sires or siblings.
Edit - also from cattle palpated open that were bred.
 

hillsdown

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2. They know what LUTALYSE® is and they know how to use it.

OK smarty pants..It is prostaglandin and there are many different named drugs for it,,,now please explain exactly just how this should be used on heifers coming out pasture..

SL2 ONLY,,,,,,,, NO ONE ELSE FROM THE PEANUT GALLERY ANSWER PLEASE !!!!!!!!!
 

hillsdown

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OK, so that is all you/they do is give a shot of prostaglandin when they ween heifers or after they pull the bull out ?

Edit for spelling :oops: , I don't want to be critiqued for my bad spelling by anyone else but my husband ,,whose second language is English.. :lol2:
 

hillsdown

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Thank you SL2, and that totally clarifies things and is probably why their are so many "feed lot" pregnancies ....Prostaglandin alone is not good enough you need to give it in conjunction with dexamathesone (or a similar drug) as you do not know how far bred your heifers are they could have conceived at 4 months hence they would be 3-4 months bred if you work them at 8 months old ,or they could have conceived last week. Also it is not 100% effective so it realistically should be done twice...

under 3 months bred prostaglandin
3-6 months bred prostaglandin and dex
6 and above dex alone

I have Gelbvieh who are known to mature at around 4 months so when we vaccinate the heifers in the fall each heifer gets estrumate (prostaglandin) and dex..So far I have ad good luck with that and the girls come into heat shortly after, however if If I do end up with a yearling bred I will change my protocol and give shots again if I do not see a heat within 4-6 weeks..

BTW,,I do this for all heifers, Pb and commercial, whether I sell them after weening or keep them for replacements..


Hope this helps :wave: ...
 
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KNERSIE

KNERSIE

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Sirloin2

Estrumate, Lutalyse and Prostamate (and I am sure some more brand names that I don't even know about) all have the same active ingredient, namely prostaglandin, also called PGF 2 alpha (don't know how to insert the alpha sign). That causes the corpus luteum in an open animal or the corpus luteum of pregnancy in a bred animal to degenerate and thus to start the next heat cycle which will offcourse abort a foetus. If used for abortion its only effective from about 7 days after conception and best results will be before 100 days, after about 150 days it may result in damage to the reproductive tract when the aborted foetus is passed.

The only difference between Estrumate and Lutalyse is Lutalyse use the natural version and Estrumate the synthetic version of the same hormone. The test results I've seen suggests that Estrumate are slightly more effective, but I doubt there is much in it. I use Estrumate because I've always had good success with Estrumate and why change something that works.
 
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KNERSIE

KNERSIE

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SirLoin2":3sc9roh8 said:
KNERSIE
Re:
If used for abortion its only effective from about 7 days after conception and best results will be before 100 days, after about 150 days it may result in damage to the reproductive tract when the aborted foetus is passed.

Now I’m not trying to put words in your mouth and if I am reading and understanding what you are saying correctly, and please feel free to correct if I am wrong, what you are saying is:

After 7 days of inception the abortion shot is effective? Prior to that it is not?

Its only effective if there is a viable corpus luteum or a viable corpus luteum of pregnancy. That is usually from about 5-6 days after ovulating. The recommendation is to wait atleast 7 days (preferably 10) to be sure there is a viable corpus luteum.

After about 150 days it is still effective but may result in damage to the reproductive tract correct?

Yes, but I think its efficacy goes down as the gestation progresses, but don't quaote me on that.

Assuming we are not concerned about the reproductive track, as this heifer is going to the feed lot as beef, it is still effective, for how long? Up to 30 days prior to giving birth, when you should be able to tell she is spring?
SL

That close to full term it will induce calving and may very well result in a live birth, although unlikely. By that time the damage has been done to the feedlotter.
 

Brandonm22

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KNERSIE":2i7id927 said:
Could it be that they were already breed at weaning and sold to back grounders and no one even knew it?

.....or could it be that too many commercial producers don't know the birthdates of their calves and combined with no defined calving season and general lack of (micro) management the young suckling heifers are exposed to the bull when they are starting to cycle because without knowledge of their age, the producers are guessing when to pull them out of the same pasture as the bull?

Exactly, Knersie I used to do a lot of catching/hauling cattle for people. More than once, I got called out to places where 1) they hadn't sold ANYTHING in two or three years 2) they really did not know whether a cow had calved or not 3) they never castrated ANYTHING and 4) the bulls ran with the cows year round. My job would be to catch everything for the guy and help him descide which ones he needed to load. The 10 to 28 month old intact bulls being the obvious priority. We would cull the obvious culls, sell all the calves older than 5 months, and any heifers that weren't obviously late preggies. I would try to leave him with a respectable looking group of hopefully bred mature cows and two year old heifers and a bull or two. In two or three years later, somebody else would repeat the process. Herds like that is probably where most of the preggie feeders come from.
 

3waycross

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I'm sure this will get me flamed but, I agree with what Hillsdown has posted here. Especially the part about needing to Lute the Gelbvieh heifers over 4 months of age at weaning. We had to learn about how fecund they are the hard way. Now we routinly give Lutalayse at weaning to ALL heifers whether they are for replacements or going to the sale barn.

The info about adding Dex after 100days is much appreciated. We had a little wreck with the bull this year and have a few Registered Gelbvieh cows bred way too early we will Lute them in 2 weeks when we work the calves and Vaccinate the cows.

Thanks for the info.

PS to Sirloin 2 you will make very few friends here attacking Hillsdown.
 

3waycross

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Now we routinly give Lutalayse at weaning to ALL heifers whether they are for replacements or going to the sale barn.

How much clearer can I make it than this?

By the way. If it is such a big problem for the feedlots why would they not have a program of their own for routinely treating incoming heifers, for possible pregnancies. They give shots for everything else why not that. If you think that most if any small, medium ,or large producers who are not retaining ownership are gonna lutalayse their heifers when shipping I believe you are barking up the wrong tree.

We only do it as a courtesy and also because we have not been shipping that many heifers the last few years, but I have a friend who shipped close to 2500 heifers last year, at 3 dollars a pop I can guarantee you that he's NOT going to give that shot to those heifers as they go on the truck. Now I could be wrong but I think that makes him a pretty large producer and unless he's forced to he is not gonna routinely abort the heifers he ships.
 

hillsdown

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SL I have offered you and every one here very valuable advice , take it or leave it.

As far as using dex I have said it many times before and I do hope that people here know me well enough that I do not dispense health/breeding advice without relaying what our procedures are and why we do things this way at the advice of a very very good vet..

Estrumate, Lutalyse and Prostamate (and I am sure some more brand names that I don't even know about) all have the same active ingredient, namely prostaglandin, also called PGF 2 alpha (don't know how to insert the alpha sign). That causes the corpus luteum in an open animal or the corpus luteum of pregnancy in a bred animal to degenerate and thus to start the next heat cycle which will offcourse abort a foetus. If used for abortion its only effective from about 7 days after conception and best results will be before 100 days, after about 150 days it may result in damage to the reproductive tract when the aborted foetus is passed.

Now if the cl is killed at an early stage we call it an absorption because the fertilized embryo is just absorbed by the animal ( more complicated but that is how a vet refers to it) When the fetus is 3 months and older it will not be absorbed (obviously it is larger) but needs to be expelled, this is where dex a corticosteroid is given..

Some breeds are extremely fertile little buggers so if you ween/work anything that could have been exposed to a bull 4 months old and up (which is more likely than not) you could have a bred calf. If the calf is more than 3 months bred you need to use dex to induce labor (corticosteroids at proper dosage result in induction of parturition ) after you have terminated the fetus because more than likely if you do not it will stay in the calf and cause all sorts of problems from mummification ,metritis, to the worst case death from infection.

When I go over my herd health protocol we due each fall (preg check and vaccinate calves/cows) my Vet always insists that we use estrumate as well as dex for each heifer just in case, and will not risk using prostaglandin alone, so that is what I do. It costs me 10 dollars per calf (will be cheaper for you Americans) but is definitely worth it rather than the alternative. I want my seed stock bred on my schedule and to the bull I choose and I want my feeder heifers as well as replacements open for whomever they go to..I may go the extra mile but for now that is how I am going to operate..

I hope this explains everything.

As far as one hit wonders they are a huge problem still in the industry but with education we can help...If you cannot count to two do not band. You are better off leaving nuts intact then doing a half @ss job, and the buyer knows that they are still there and not assuming they have been done correctly. But as pedigrees get better calves having both "boys" down as soon as they are born are becoming more and more the norm and it is hard not to get both unless you really really try..
 
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KNERSIE

KNERSIE

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Now if the cl is killed at an early stage we call it an absorption because the fertilized embryo is just absorbed by the animal

The correct term is resorbtion.

When I go over my herd health protocol we due each fall (preg check and vaccinate calves/cows) my Vet always insists that we use estrumate as well as dex for each heifer just in case, and will not risk using prostaglandin alone, so that is what I do.

Remember the vet also sells the dex to you. I'm not arguing the value of dex in cases where the pregnancy is advanced beyond 100 days, but at weaning the chance of 100 days + pregnancies is so slim that its a chance I'm prepared to take. Actually if your breeding season is defined and 65 days or shorter (the oldest calves will be just about 5 months old when the bulls are pulled) the chance of any pregnancies except for those exceptionally growthy heifers is slim, even more so in a minimal input forage only system.
 

mwj

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SL2 if you would read the post's you would see the words ALL including FEEDER :cowboy: Sometimes you have to be able to read before you can write a book :tiphat:
 

hillsdown

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KNERSIE":2p54a4xe said:
Now if the cl is killed at an early stage we call it an absorption because the fertilized embryo is just absorbed by the animal

The correct term is resorbtion.

When I go over my herd health protocol we due each fall (preg check and vaccinate calves/cows) my Vet always insists that we use estrumate as well as dex for each heifer just in case, and will not risk using prostaglandin alone, so that is what I do.

Remember the vet also sells the dex to you. I'm not arguing the value of dex in cases where the pregnancy is advanced beyond 100 days, but at weaning the chance of 100 days + pregnancies is so slim that its a chance I'm prepared to take. Actually if your breeding season is defined and 65 days or shorter (the oldest calves will be just about 5 months old when the bulls are pulled) the chance of any pregnancies except for those exceptionally growthy heifers is slim, even more so in a minimal input forage only system.


Thanks Knersie :oops: that is actually what I had typed or meant to but my typing is so bad that I just hit spell check so it switched it from resorbed and resorbtion to absorption etc.,,I guess I should proof read better..Also is it resorbtion or resorption, I need to go through my text books again.

As far as my bred exposure ,,I AI as many as I can so they will calf in the first 3 weeks of January will the PE calves starting in the last week of Feb..

Now my bull went back in the herd today, and my AI cows are in days 23-11 after being AI'd when they hit day 30 combined (and if one has a heat in the mean time I will AI it again) they and there Jan calves will go into pasture with the rest of the herd and the bull..Therefore when I pull the bull in around 65 days my some of my calves will have reached 5-6 months of age easily as they will go in May 8th and the bull will be pulled around June 25th (I will add that it is common practice to do this for commercial as well as seed stock as having multitude pastures is not conducive. I also add that I AI commercial as well if they come into heat before I put my bull in. Last year the earliest heats I saw were 2 herf/gelb crosses at 17 weeks and 20 weeks old I thought they were just fooling around until one dumped a very tiny fetus after we Estrumated and Dex'd them .I would never have thought it had come from her if my husband wasn't there when it happened. I had a bull calf born that his "boys" never did drop so I guess he was most likely the culprit. He had to have a surgical procedure to have them removed, I had the vet do it when his was by for another reason earlier..We have very good summer pasture, if you look up central Alberta you will find that even though our growing season is 4 months at best we have gang buster crops, without irrigation.

As far as vet costs I am lucky I get everything at cost + shipping. He looks after his clients interest first and that is why he is who he is.. :) Also dex is cheap like borscht.

My point being is if you do not know birthdates and first heats you should cover your @ss. Other wise do not even bother giving them prostaglandin at all. BTW with some of the rally fertile breeds weight is not the main factor a 400lb heifer can come into heat as easily as a 600lb heifer if all circumstances are aligned.
 

hillsdown

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SirLoin2":3a5nbpj2 said:
Here’s one for ya, do you know what this is without looking it up?
“Cryptorchidism” :???:
SL

Yes, as that is what I was referring to when I posted about a bull calf whose boys never dropped ,,but after you said things were too "vetty" I didn't put it in with the techincal term.

The good thing about chryptochidism is that a lot of times they are infertile .
 

hillsdown

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SL let's hope that all vets do not just go by what a pharmaceutical company tell them but rather their own personal experience and knowledge.

Also I said (and you must have read it because you quoted it)
I want my seed stock bred on my schedule and to the bull I choose and I want my feeder heifers as well as replacements open for whomever they go to
Remember that not just commercial producers raise feeders ...
 

Keren

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SirLoin2":pqd5ut4w said:
I would never band at birth in fear of missing one or pushing one or both back up only to have it drop later.

Why? It doesnt take a genius to notice that one or both slipped up, pull the ring off and do it again correctly.

SirLoin2":pqd5ut4w said:
heifer with calf by her side, a 3 in 1 heifer,

Since when are these heifers? A heifer ceases to become a heifer when she drops a calf. She is then a cow.

SirLoin2":pqd5ut4w said:
And IMO, if you are looking for a heat cycle you are looking to breed

You know SL, maybe, just maybe, producers watch their TERMINAL heifers for signs of heat, to be certain that they are empty and therefore PREVENT FEEDLOT PREGNANCIES!!
 

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I'm not against banding. I'm against careless people banding. Like Keren said, it's not hard to cut it off and start again. The first thing I learnt about marking cattle is that you have to MAKE SURE YOU GET BOTH NUTS. :lol2:

A heifer that's small can come into heat just as easily as one who is big. I saw that this easter actually. My boyfriends family have a herd and one calf was neglected and not picked up and was about hip height, runty and ugly as sin. Bull caught her when she was only a few months old. She calved the other day as a weaner, hooves and snout fit but nothing else would. calf was dead so they shot her. Just goes to show that weight means NOTHING.

I'm so sick of small operation bashing. Plenty of small operators know what they're doing. The most I can look at is a small operation because I wasn't born into money. So for me, 100 acres is a dream. But doesn't mean I'm not going to do it right because it's a hobby.
 

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