What kind of gains on feeder calves can you expect off of good actively growing spring pasture? It is orchard grass/rye grass/clover. I just need a good guestimate or what you have got in the past. Also besides mineral supplements do I need to supplement with alfalfa hay or some other protein supplement? I know spring grass has good energy values but I am not sure of the protein available. At this time of the year it is mostly grass growing, the clover is not very active yet.
Expected gains from spring grass flush?
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lukem86
Well-known member
Im new to this but here is what I have been taught...
The spring flush often times contains too much protien and will by-pass the rumen and go to the liver and actually cause cattle to lose weight. One way to help the animal balance things out is to have dry hay available free-choice. I cant quote anything directly, but have read studies that show better performance, better gains, when hay was out free choice.
I just bought a scale so I cant say for sure what my cattle gain in the spring, but I would think 2+ lbs a day is pretty reasonable on good pasture. I have similar pasture, P.rye/W.clover, Orch./Clover....
The spring flush often times contains too much protien and will by-pass the rumen and go to the liver and actually cause cattle to lose weight. One way to help the animal balance things out is to have dry hay available free-choice. I cant quote anything directly, but have read studies that show better performance, better gains, when hay was out free choice.
I just bought a scale so I cant say for sure what my cattle gain in the spring, but I would think 2+ lbs a day is pretty reasonable on good pasture. I have similar pasture, P.rye/W.clover, Orch./Clover....
SCRUBS620
Well-known member
Thanks LukeM86. That is what I was thinking and I believe I have read that somewhere. I was hoping to hear from someone who has done this. I know the average for stocker cattle held until fall is probably like 1 to 1.5 lbs/day but that is with the summer slump averaged in. I am hoping for more like 2 lbs/day if I only keep them while the grass is growing really well.
For the past couple of years I have bought small calves in the spring to put out on pasture. 1st year I got about 1.5 lbs ADG but that year I held them through summer and threw the grain to them towards fall so its not an accurate measure (lousy I know but I was still learning). The next year I sold one young bull in June and he had gained 2.3 lbs/day from march to june with about 3 lbs of grain per day. Another one I kept until september and he gained 2.98 lbs per day but agian with grain (avg 5-7 lbs/day) With the price of grain this year I would just like to feed them grass and a protein supplement if they will gain OK. Again this year I will probably sell them when the good spring growth is coming to an end. I would like to eventually overstock in march, get the most out of the grass and then reduce to what my pasture will hold through the hot dry summers here.
For the past couple of years I have bought small calves in the spring to put out on pasture. 1st year I got about 1.5 lbs ADG but that year I held them through summer and threw the grain to them towards fall so its not an accurate measure (lousy I know but I was still learning). The next year I sold one young bull in June and he had gained 2.3 lbs/day from march to june with about 3 lbs of grain per day. Another one I kept until september and he gained 2.98 lbs per day but agian with grain (avg 5-7 lbs/day) With the price of grain this year I would just like to feed them grass and a protein supplement if they will gain OK. Again this year I will probably sell them when the good spring growth is coming to an end. I would like to eventually overstock in march, get the most out of the grass and then reduce to what my pasture will hold through the hot dry summers here.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Lots of variables here and every year is different... I think the average daily gain extremes in the mid west would be long season heifers on short grass at about 1.2 pounds per day and double stocked large steers with heavy supplementation/substitution at 3.5 pounds per day. More typical would be about 1.7 to 2.0 pounds per day with MIG but no supplementation and up to 2.5 pounds per day with 3 to 7 pounds of energy based grain. It is really not so much how high is your ADG per animal but rather your net per acre...
I try different feeding approaches every year. I have a scale but I don't use it as much as I should. With the current price of grain and N my plan to energy supplement with cob corn on the washy spring grass (need both energy and fiber and don't like hauling hay), no supplement during early summer peak, and supplement cheap 7/1 hay during summer slump (it costs less than broadcasting N when rain fall and temperature are not ideal and I stock heavy). This can deliver a cost of gain in the US$ .52 to .77 per pound range depending on the type of animal.
There are folks claiming cost of gain in the $0.30 per pound range but often they have "free land", no labor charges, and low stocking rates.
Use the scale and let me know what you learn.
I try different feeding approaches every year. I have a scale but I don't use it as much as I should. With the current price of grain and N my plan to energy supplement with cob corn on the washy spring grass (need both energy and fiber and don't like hauling hay), no supplement during early summer peak, and supplement cheap 7/1 hay during summer slump (it costs less than broadcasting N when rain fall and temperature are not ideal and I stock heavy). This can deliver a cost of gain in the US$ .52 to .77 per pound range depending on the type of animal.
There are folks claiming cost of gain in the $0.30 per pound range but often they have "free land", no labor charges, and low stocking rates.
Use the scale and let me know what you learn.
SCRUBS620
Well-known member
Stocker Steve":2jm6ozxb said:
I was hoping you would respond. You always have great information. What kind of ration of corn cob are you planning on using #/hd/day - straight, mixed with corn; what ratio? So it looks like I could repeat what I have done previously. My grass gets so far ahead of the animals that yopu could lose a small calf in it by May. If I get enough to keep up with it and keep it from going to seed I end up being overstocked by July. Thanks again.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
The ideal situation is to test your forage and have your ration balanced. The reality is most folks don't, or their feed company is reluctant to, because you are not buying enough additives. I usually go with cob corn, a mineral mix, and up to 5% molasses.
I have tried initial (at turnout) stocking rates between 527 and 897 pounds per acre. I have had gain per acre between 204 and 823 pounds. I think it takes some effort, some rain, and some good sod to get over 300 pounds of gain per acre in the midwest. The lowest stocking rate gave good animal performance w/o supplementing, but it also gave a modest return per acre. The highest stocking rate was supported by supplementing with $1.50 corn, and it is clearly not recommended in 2007. For me at current prices - - about 600 pounds per acre seems to be the sweet spot. There is some Missouri data on the web that comes with with a similiar stocking recommendation. You could run some kind of computor program to optimize size, stocking rate, gain... but Mother Nature usually throws you a curve of two each year.
I try to be a little cattle heavy in the spring and then sell some if neccessary in July or August. How many depends on the weather and the price of supplement. These short term "double stocked" cattle have been profitable since I buy cutter bulls low, and heavy feeders as usually high priced in late summer. These are the "rough" cattle most folks don't want but they good pretty good after three trips through the chute and 100 days of MIG. It may be my ego, but I sense that most of them are very very happy with the kind of care received at their new location. About one in thirty of these cutter bulls will be a head case that either tests your fences or tries to grind you into the ground.
I have tried initial (at turnout) stocking rates between 527 and 897 pounds per acre. I have had gain per acre between 204 and 823 pounds. I think it takes some effort, some rain, and some good sod to get over 300 pounds of gain per acre in the midwest. The lowest stocking rate gave good animal performance w/o supplementing, but it also gave a modest return per acre. The highest stocking rate was supported by supplementing with $1.50 corn, and it is clearly not recommended in 2007. For me at current prices - - about 600 pounds per acre seems to be the sweet spot. There is some Missouri data on the web that comes with with a similiar stocking recommendation. You could run some kind of computor program to optimize size, stocking rate, gain... but Mother Nature usually throws you a curve of two each year.
I try to be a little cattle heavy in the spring and then sell some if neccessary in July or August. How many depends on the weather and the price of supplement. These short term "double stocked" cattle have been profitable since I buy cutter bulls low, and heavy feeders as usually high priced in late summer. These are the "rough" cattle most folks don't want but they good pretty good after three trips through the chute and 100 days of MIG. It may be my ego, but I sense that most of them are very very happy with the kind of care received at their new location. About one in thirty of these cutter bulls will be a head case that either tests your fences or tries to grind you into the ground.
Dave
Well-known member
There is an old saying that is still true today. Fertilizer doesn't cost it pays. If N is the limiting factor in your grass production it is still cheap. It takes somewhere around 50 to 60 pounds of N to grow a ton of dry matter in grass. A month ago I paid $0.45 a pound for N. But lets figure 50 cents. That means the N cost you $25 - 30 per ton of dry matter. Nothing else you feed is that cheap.
P and K have very few and small loses in a grazing system. N however has lots of avenues of loss. To keep production levels up that N has to be replaced or production will fall.
P and K have very few and small loses in a grazing system. N however has lots of avenues of loss. To keep production levels up that N has to be replaced or production will fall.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
There is a HUGE variation in the pounds of dry matter produced per pound on N applied. The useful data is broken down by time of year and type of forage and amount of N applied. A typical range in between 10 and 30 pounds of DM per pound N.
The problem is the better response rate is it occurs during the spring peak when you may not need the grass... I usually provide 30 to 40 pounds of N with sulfur at green up, and then buy some $50 a ton hay if it really gets dry during late summer.
There was some bluegrass with clover data published last year out of Wisc. that showed you lost money by adding N to that forage mix regardless of the time of year.
The problem is the better response rate is it occurs during the spring peak when you may not need the grass... I usually provide 30 to 40 pounds of N with sulfur at green up, and then buy some $50 a ton hay if it really gets dry during late summer.
There was some bluegrass with clover data published last year out of Wisc. that showed you lost money by adding N to that forage mix regardless of the time of year.
Dave
Well-known member
Most of the variation is in dry matter yeild per pound of N is in the stage of growth at harvest. When I said 50 to 60 pouds of N per ton of DM I was talking vegetative grass because this is a pasture situation. But it still remains that every time a cow lifts its tail you lose around 25% the N. If it is hot and dry you might be losing 50%. That N has to be replaced or eventuaally there will be less available for plant growth.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
Stocker Steve":r4aocjjy said:
I went back and found the Wisc data. They applied 50# each on 5/1, 6/15, and 8/1. The BEST results were at 5/1 with 5 #/# for bluegrass/clover, 27 #/# for brome, and 21 #/# for orchard grass.
With $72 a ton hay and $470 a ton urea - - the only profitable applications were 5/1 and 8/1 for brome, and 5/1 and 8/1 for orchard grass... You lost $40/acre by putting urea on bluegrass.
Dave
Well-known member
Interesting data. But they must of had some big losses of N. Those aren't uptake numbers, they are yield responce to fertilizer applied. At 21 pounds of Orchardgrass per pound of N, if it had all been taken up by the grass the crude protein would be 29.75%. We know that didn't happen. So they either had N left in the soil or they lost it to leaching or volitilization. They system isn't 100% efficent but it should be better than that.
But that again shows my point that there are losses in the nitrogen cycle. That N has to be replaced in some way. It can be from legumes, organic matter breakdown in the soil, imported feed that passed through the cattle, or fertilizer. There are a lot of different ways of replacing it but the grass isn't going to grow without it.
And importing $70 hay (I wish) and letting someone else mine the nutrient out of their soil can be a good way to go. That is the way most of the nutrients come to my place. It is just in the form of winter fed hay that I am able capture most of the manure and spread to the fields.
But that again shows my point that there are losses in the nitrogen cycle. That N has to be replaced in some way. It can be from legumes, organic matter breakdown in the soil, imported feed that passed through the cattle, or fertilizer. There are a lot of different ways of replacing it but the grass isn't going to grow without it.
And importing $70 hay (I wish) and letting someone else mine the nutrient out of their soil can be a good way to go. That is the way most of the nutrients come to my place. It is just in the form of winter fed hay that I am able capture most of the manure and spread to the fields.
Stocker Steve
Well-known member
I am stocking heavy and trying to build up fertility w/o paying $470/ton to price gougers for urea. I think a 600 to 800 pound stocking rate is possible with the right fertility. On the home place I ran some quick numbers on inputs per acre per year:
3/4 ton of turkey litter
1 ton of hay & cob corn (80% purchased in)
10 to 20 pounds actual of chemical sulfur mag
3 to 5 pounds of clover seed
Soil test results are climbing fast. The real deal is I have green grass when the neighbor has a brown golf course. I also get a few more weeds but it is nothing a $100 sickle mower and a teenager can not handle. My clover catch has not consistent so I plan to try weakening the grass in one pasture by eliminating the turkey litter.
Hay is still cheap in the country because there are a number of retired dairy farmers who like to make it but have no stock. Four dollar corn will change that in a couple years.
3/4 ton of turkey litter
1 ton of hay & cob corn (80% purchased in)
10 to 20 pounds actual of chemical sulfur mag
3 to 5 pounds of clover seed
Soil test results are climbing fast. The real deal is I have green grass when the neighbor has a brown golf course. I also get a few more weeds but it is nothing a $100 sickle mower and a teenager can not handle. My clover catch has not consistent so I plan to try weakening the grass in one pasture by eliminating the turkey litter.
Hay is still cheap in the country because there are a number of retired dairy farmers who like to make it but have no stock. Four dollar corn will change that in a couple years.
