Ephemeral

[Bigfoot]

I spoke at a rodeo Sunday. We had about 15 to 20 in attendance at the service. The rodeo started about 45 minutes after the service. Maybe a little less. A good guess would be that there were 300 people at the rodeo. Based on that, I'd say the unconcerned out number the believers. I've wished my whole life, that I knew what to say to the unconcerned. I just don't have the answer.

 

[hurleyjd]

You will never know whether there is a heaven or hades until you die. It may give you a good feeling that you are going to a better place. And the fear of hell that keeps you honest.

 

[inyati13]

You will never know whether there is a heaven or hades until you die. It may give you a good feeling that you are going to a better place. And the fear of be nice that keeps you honest.

Hurley, the best friend I have in my "ephemeral" life has become a devout Christian. We go back to my college days. Those were days filled with many sinful endeavors. Now that we have gotten older, he has sought salvation. He is an extremely intelligent person. He has a Master's degree in Biology and Chemistry. I ask him how he reconciles making such a radical change in his direction in life. He replied much like you did. He said he is well along (he is a few years older than I) his way to departing this earth and he wanted a "better place to go". I looked at him and ask, "Is that all it takes?" You just decide that you have a need and desire to hold on to your existance and you can transform into a Christian. He looked at me meekly and said, "Ron, I want an insurance policy that provides me piece of mind." I could not fault him for that. But does not a Divine Creator know when we are being selfish and seeking something for our benefit and not out of true conviction. You either believe with every molecule of your being or you don't.

 

[pdfangus]

I congratulate all that this exchange could go on this long in an intelligent and meaningful manner and that it has not devolved into name calling and critisisim.

I was raised in the church....but was turned off by the hypocrisy and sins that I saw from within the church...just normal human weakness exhibited by those who were trying to save my soul..... and they were as weak as me..... or worse becasue of their hypocrisy.

Religion has long been a great divider among mankind....
all the religions subscibe to the belief of a higher power.....
then argue over whos god is more powerful and the true god....

I sort of take the middle road....
I don't subscribe to religion....
but I do believe that there must be something more powerful in the universe than man...
I know that evil exists in the world....
it makes sense to me that there must be an offsetting good...
I cannot name it or describe it but once had a friend who subscribed to the belief that all of the worlds religious leaders...
I am talking about the big ones ....Jesus, Mohammed, Budda....etc.....
not oral roberts and benny hinn.....
were attempts by the higher power to send emisaries to man who were sent to get man to believe.....
but mankind responded by having wars over which was the true path to god....
and then the greed and avarice that all religions exhibit....my church is bigger than your church...
the constant litany that money is evil so you must give it to the church....

I try to live as well as I can by a sense of basic right and wrong....
In my younger days I used to think I was a warrior in the battle of good versus evil but the battle line was ever moving and sometimes you find yourself in enemy territory...
that fact is tempered by my upbringing in the christian church which formed my thoughts of right and wrong....
I sometimes cringe because I do not have the faith of some of you who are more devout...it must be wonderful to know that you are secure in your beliefs and eternal paradise awaits only your departure from the mortal plane....
there have been times in my life that I should have been killed and was not...times that make you say thank you god....
I wonder why I was spared....what is my mission?.....so far it is unknown to me....If I have one, I only hope that I can do it justice and toward that end I try to live by my sense of right and wrong....
but I do not want to be like Ron's friend who needs an insurance policy late in life....

 

[Deepsouth]

I spoke at a rodeo Sunday. We had about 15 to 20 in attendance at the service. The rodeo started about 45 minutes after the service. Maybe a little less. A good guess would be that there were 300 people at the rodeo. Based on that, I'd say the unconcerned out number the believers. I've wished my whole life, that I knew what to say to the unconcerned. I just don't have the answer.

Bigfoot you hit the nail on the head. There are far more concerned than there are believers or unbelievers. Even though I completely disagree with inyati I can still respect the fact that he is a man with devout convictions. The world is full of people who actually believe there is a divine being a creator yet they are totally concerned about knowing him or learning what his purpose was in creating us or finding out if he has a purpose and plan for us. They just go through there self absorbed life's totally unconcerned about eternity.

 

[pdfangus]

just heard on the news that Westboro Baptist Church is demonstrating against something again.....I don't even know or care what it is....
those people belive passionately whatever it is they believe.....

but I will never forgive them for protesting the funerals of American Soliders....

 

[Nesikep]

pdfangus.. I think you may have put my thoughts into words better than I could have

 

[Deepsouth]

Pdfangus, you bring up the contention that exist between the different religions over who's God is the true God. Also you bring up the possibility that they all worship the same God only in different ways and God has revealed Himself to the world through different men. We also have to take into consideration the views of atheist and agnostic's. Your real question is can we know the truth and who is right or could they all be right.
If the atheist says when we die its the end and the Hindu and Buddhist belive in reincarnation. The Muslim believes he will be in some level of paradise but not actually with Allah himself and the Christian believes he will be in heaven with God they can't all be right. Your right, there are many religions and many gods that offer peace. The one thing seems blaringly obvious to me is that there is no way for them all to be right. If the atheist is right then all of the religions are wrong. If only one of the religions is right then the atheist is wrong but so are all the other religions. For us to know who is right we must know who has the truth because only the truth is right.

So who has the truth is the real question, because whoever has the truth is right.

An agnostic does not believe we can know the truth so I dismiss him. The atheist believes in happenstance. We are the product of an explosion that produced a star with a planet in just the right orbit for life to just begin from a random chemical reaction. I can't even start to get my mind to comprehend that. I'm sorry but I just don't have that much faith in explosions.

Of the major religions they can't all have the truth because they teach different things concerning God, mankind and the afterlife. Since they can't all be right only the one with the truth is for me but which one has the truth? If we look closely we'll find that most of them are really not all that different at all. Of 31 major religions in the world most of them teach that peace with god is achieved by being good and doing good things. As a matter of fact they all teach this except one. The problem is that they all have so many different opinions of what being good is. My problem is I don't see people as being good. Sure people do lots of good things and I like to think for the most part we try to live good lives. Yet even the best of us lie, cheat, steal, hate, want what others have and I could go on. I think you have to agree we are a pretty bad lot. So being good isn't going to get it done for me.
So where does that leave me? It leaves me with that one religion that doesn't teach that I'll find eternal peace by being good, Christianity. So what does it have to offer me? It tells me I'm not good, it tells me I can't possibly earn my eternal life by being good or doing good deeds. I know from my own life that's the truth. It doesn't have a list of rules that I have to live by to get eternal life although most people thinks it does. It does have a book of principles that will make life better if we apply them but its not a book of laws that we must abide by. We are given ten commandments although it acknowledges that we are not capable of keeping them because by our nature we are rebellious. It even explains to me why I'm not capable of being good enough to earn eternal life.
So what exactly does Christianity offer me? Well it offers me more than just a dry religion. It offers me a God who became one of us and lived as one of us so that He could reveal Himself to us. He also became one of us so that He could know what It's like to be one of us so He could understand us better. He faced everything that any of us have ever faced or ever will face. He was tempted just like we are tempted only He over came temptation proving that He and He alone is righteous. Then He gave His life for us so that through His righteousness I can be forgiven for being bad and have peace and eternal life through His righteousness.

So I choose Jesus and by putting my faith in Him I have a relationship with God that goes way beyond an empty religion.

 

[boondocks]

I congratulate all that this exchange could go on this long in an intelligent and meaningful manner and that it has not devolved into name calling and critisisim.

[...]
I try to live as well as I can by a sense of basic right and wrong....
In my younger days I used to think I was a warrior in the battle of good versus evil but the battle line was ever moving and sometimes you find yourself in enemy territory...
[...]
I do not want to be like Ron's friend who needs an insurance policy late in life....

YES. THAT. All 4. Especially the bold.

 

[inyati13]

I congratulate all that this exchange could go on this long in an intelligent and meaningful manner and that it has not devolved into name calling and critisisim.

[...]
I try to live as well as I can by a sense of basic right and wrong....
In my younger days I used to think I was a warrior in the battle of good versus evil but the battle line was ever moving and sometimes you find yourself in enemy territory...
[...]
I do not want to be like Ron's friend who needs an insurance policy late in life....

YES. THAT. All 4. Especially the bold.

x2. The bold is well stated and perceptive!

 

[inyati13]

Pdfangus, you bring up the contention that exist between the different religions over who's God is the true God. Also you bring up the possibility that they all worship the same God only in different ways and God has revealed Himself to the world through different men. We also have to take into consideration the views of atheist and agnostic's. Your real question is can we know the truth and who is right or could they all be right.
If the atheist says when we die its the end and the Hindu and Buddhist belive in reincarnation. The Muslim believes he will be in some level of paradise but not actually with Allah himself and the Christian believes he will be in heaven with God they can't all be right. Your right, there are many religions and many gods that offer peace. The one thing seems blaringly obvious to me is that there is no way for them all to be right. If the atheist is right then all of the religions are wrong. If only one of the religions is right then the atheist is wrong but so are all the other religions. For us to know who is right we must know who has the truth because only the truth is right.

So who has the truth is the real question, because whoever has the truth is right.

An agnostic does not believe we can know the truth so I dismiss him. The atheist believes in happenstance. We are the product of an explosion that produced a star with a planet in just the right orbit for life to just begin from a random chemical reaction. I can't even start to get my mind to comprehend that. I'm sorry but I just don't have that much faith in explosions.

Of the major religions they can't all have the truth because they teach different things concerning God, mankind and the afterlife. Since they can't all be right only the one with the truth is for me but which one has the truth? If we look closely we'll find that most of them are really not all that different at all. Of 31 major religions in the world most of them teach that peace with god is achieved by being good and doing good things. As a matter of fact they all teach this except one. The problem is that they all have so many different opinions of what being good is. My problem is I don't see people as being good. Sure people do lots of good things and I like to think for the most part we try to live good lives. Yet even the best of us lie, cheat, steal, hate, want what others have and I could go on. I think you have to agree we are a pretty bad lot. So being good isn't going to get it done for me.
So where does that leave me? It leaves me with that one religion that doesn't teach that I'll find eternal peace by being good, Christianity. So what does it have to offer me? It tells me I'm not good, it tells me I can't possibly earn my eternal life by being good or doing good deeds. I know from my own life that's the truth. It doesn't have a list of rules that I have to live by to get eternal life although most people thinks it does. It does have a book of principles that will make life better if we apply them but its not a book of laws that we must abide by. We are given ten commandments although it acknowledges that we are not capable of keeping them because by our nature we are rebellious. It even explains to me why I'm not capable of being good enough to earn eternal life.
So what exactly does Christianity offer me? Well it offers me more than just a dry religion. It offers me a God who became one of us and lived as one of us so that He could reveal Himself to us. He also became one of us so that He could know what It's like to be one of us so He could understand us better. He faced everything that any of us have ever faced or ever will face. He was tempted just like we are tempted only He over came temptation proving that He and He alone is righteous. Then He gave His life for us so that through His righteousness I can be forgiven for being bad and have peace and eternal life through His righteousness.

So I choose Jesus and by putting my faith in Him I have a relationship with God that goes way beyond an empty religion.

Deepsouth, I have a great respect for one who thinks and strives to find order. You have spent time and effort in something that is important to you. IMO, that is one of the rewards of this life. You do a wonderful job expressing your thoughts but, you did not provide validation on where the truth is, albeit, I think you know where you think it is. In fact, you were deliberate in saying "So I choose Jesus...".

One category you should include in your thoughts is the "Pagan". A philosophy that has its roots in two concepts (1) that there is not a Devine Power sitting somewhere dealing out justice and (2) that the Universe is the result of natural processes. You mention philosophies that are similar but the difference is that the Pagan believes that because we do not know or understand the origins of the Universe or life; one should not use Devine Creation as a means to fill in the lack of understanding. It is proper to place the Pagan in the category of the atheist but I put a nuance on it. Why? Because your discussion assumes that the atheist thinks he knows how this all got to be. The Pagan says we may not know but let us not jump to conclusions and grasp for straws!

 

[lovehammer]

Ron, I usually stay out of religious threads on any forum but this one seems unusually civil.

I think atheists readily accept theories as fact. It seems to me that we have very little understanding of how the universe was formed. Theories about what was there before the big bang (a theory itself) are very speculative. We have theoretical models but all of them are based on assumptions made by other models and theories. Most atheists accept the big bang theory as fact and have closed their minds to other options. There are several theories about how life was formed on our own planet, and when it's all condensed, we really aren't sure exactly how all of it came to be. I don't see how one can accept all of these theories and speculations, best guesses, etc. and then take a look at the world around them, marvel at its wonders, and not consider "something" having had a guiding hand in the whole beautiful thing. Honestly, it's hard for me to believe that all of this happened by purely random chance.

 

[inyati13]

lovehammer:

I have a BS and MS in a curriculum of Biology and Geology. I have never seen any credible science that states or concludes that “substance emanates from non-substance.” I do see two-bit TV evangelist attempt to attribute such non-sense to the halls of science. They are the same ones who will take your donation and use it to take their girlfriend to a Las Vegas Casino and spend your money while they sip their martini.

No University of higher learning is teaching that the origins of life or the universe is a known fact and the fact can be demonstrated and documented in a repeatable experiment. There are theories on the origins of life and it involves substantive precursors. A good understanding of organic chemistry or biochemistry is a prerequisite if you want to get anything out of it. I took such a course at the graduate level taught by a man who represented the United States of America during the 1959 Geophysical Year when he went to Antarctic with 60 Russian scientist. He went through a US military language course and learned Russian in six weeks. When he returned to University, he taught Russian. Dr. Madison E. Pryor. A glacier in Antarctic is named in his honor.

But here is to your point: We live in a natural world. What we know are natural phenomena. The laws of physics. We are carbon units. We breath air. We must take on fuel to provide replacement elements and energy. Therefore, why would I look to a Wizard to have created the Universe. The Christian Doctrine is like the trilogy of the Lord of the Rings. It all depends on the Wizard.

For a Christian who has faith in the Wizard, it seems easy. But for me, it is more far fetched to believe in the Wizard than it is in some natural process that we do not know and may never know.

 

[Kingfisher]

Logic doesn't work in regard to faith in Jesus. It's a Supernatural love that can't be explained most of the time.

 

[hurleyjd]

To believe or not believe that is the question. If God created everything with the big bang where was He standing when he lit the fuse. I know some religions in the past sacrificed virgins and children to make the weather gods change the weather. Now I think that same person in the tribe came up with that idea to make himself important and revered in the tribe and the people would bring offering to him as he sit on his azz and contemplated what is it that makes the World go round . Was it the sacrifices or just nature being nature that made the change my answer is nature. God must have a heck of a computer to keep up with all of the sins committed by us mortals.I will say one thing an atheist has to live with the guilt of his sins. A Christen can sin and ask for forgiveness on Sunday and the sin is canceled. It is easy just confess before God and men and everything is cool. You just better hope the Sheriff is not in the congregation that day.

 

[Deepsouth]

Inyati, you say you have great respect for me because I think and strive to find order. Then you compare me to Dorothy looking for the Wizard of Oz. I'm glad you have respect for me I'd hate to hear what you would think of me if you didn't.
Ok you ask me about validation of truth. Well the Bible has been proven to be historical accurate. It's also scientifically accurate. Over 3000 years before Columbus sailed to the new world the Bible stated the world was a sphere and give the rain water cycle. When God told the Israelites to circumcise the male babies he told them to wait till they were 8 days old. Platelets in the blood are highest at 8 days so bleeding was minimal. But the Bible isn't a history book or a science book. However it is a book of prophecy. No other religious book is prophetic. There is nothing more important to the validation of the truth than prophecy.
During the Babylonian Empire king Nebuchadnezzar had a dream that haunted him. He could not understand it's meaning and he wanted to know. So he called all his magicians, astrologers and sorcerers. He told them he had dreamed s8meshing that bothered him and wanted them to interpret the dream. They said tell us the dream so we can interpret it. Nebuchadnezzar was no fool. He told them to tell him the dream then interpret it. They said what he asked was impossible. The Babylonians had some Hebrew slaves and one of these slaves heard what was happening. That night God give him the same dream and the interpretation. He asked to see the king and was brought before him. The king asked him if he could tell him his dream and the boy Daniel said yes and told him his dream.
In the dream the king saw a great statute of a man that was placed above the province of Babylon. The statutes head was made of gold. The chest and arms were made of silver. It's mid section the belly and thighs were made of bronze. It's legs were iron and the feet were iron and clay. Then a great stone struck the feet and broke them into pieces. The king was astounded because it was indeed exactly what he had dreamed.
Daniel then gave him the interpretation. The statute represented 4 world empires. The head of gold was the Babylonian empire. The chest of silver was the medo-Persian empire who indeed conquered the Babylonians. The midsection of bronze was the Greek empire who defeated the Medo-Persians. And the legs represented the Romans who brought down the Greeks. The feet of iron and clay that was struck by a stone was the fall of the Roman empire from with in.
All of this was prophesied and it all happened just as it was prophesied. Look it up in Daniel chapter 2, read it, study it and try to dispute it. And this is only one of many prophesies in the bible that have been accurately fulfilled. That's sound validation of the truth for me.

 

[inyati13]

Todd, I have no purpose for disrespect in my prose. I used a Wizard as a dramatic analogy to demonstrate that just as theist find non-Devine explanations for the unknowns that fill our life to be tantamount to sacrilege; the Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan and Heathen find the Devine explanations for the unknowns to be tantamount to following a fable, a legend, or at best: Mythology.

Since man ascended from his ancestral beginnings, he has invented and employed Mythology, Deities, Forces of Nature, Idols, sacrifices and other substitutes for credible information to explain what he cannot. One of the best books that addresses the subject is James Michener’s book The Source.

The history of human beings is a chronicle of his failure to answer why he is here, what purpose he serves, and how it all came to be. But the greatest struggle is man’s repulsion with the concept that he will not exist. To address that, man has spawned the numerous great religions of the world.

Point: Those who subscribe to one of the many religions of the world wonder how anyone could not embrace the tenets of their religion. The Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, and Heathen wonders how you can be fooled by such magic, Wizards, rituals, and two thousand year old stories. They cannot see it in a different light than believing in ghosts, Santa Claus, and yes, you said it: The Wizard of Oz. It is that way, it has been that way and it will continue to be that way.