EPD's

[BIZIN]

Wondering how much stock you can put in EPD's? We stopped registering cows in 2001, but have kept running them as purebreds, keeping all their information except EPD's. Found out that on my computer program for my herd records, you can simulate EPD's, so I input all the EPD's of the sires and dams that have been registered and worked my way to last years calves. Now I know they arent 100% accurate, but the heifers I bought that are Registered, I did them too and they were within a decimal point of the real EPD's from the hereford website. So I am wondering if EPD's are worth looking at, or is the type of cow, weaning weights and calf gain better to look at? Some of the EPD's I simulated look like how that bull or cow did perform, but some seem way off. I have a homeraised bull that throws cows with great bags and lots of milk, but it has his milk EPD as below average.

2nd question... In the canadian hereford assoc. how do I read the Cow weight number and the Stayability number, is higher better or lower better?

 

[Herefords.US]

Look at the accuracy levels. If they're less than .6 they're unreliable - and I'm betting that they are.

Regardless of what the EPDs say, it's how they perform in your herd that counts.

The only thing low accuracy EPDs are good for is to help "sell" the cattle to someone that thinks they might actually mean something.

George

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Look at the accuracy levels. If they're less than .6 they're unreliable - and I'm betting that they are.

Regardless of what the EPDs say, it's how they perform in your herd that counts.

The only thing low accuracy EPDs are good for is to help "sell" the cattle to someone that thinks they might actually mean something.

George

George, your first statement is correct. Your second statement is correct. EPD's are as valuable as the individual who records them, and as useful as the individual who utilizes them. As with computers: Garbage IN - Garbage OUT!

DOC HARRIS

 

[BIZIN]

Thats the thing, this program doesnt figure in accuracy. Even if it did, the EPD's I dove have are mostly all accuracy below .6.

 

[BIZIN]

If the hereford association wouldnt charge so darn much to register all these cows from 1995 to now then I would register them, but with what they are charging it is too much of an expense. We sell a bull or two a year and keep 5-10 for ourselves so its just not worth it unless we build our hereford herd bigger.

 

[rocket2222]

I'd agree that they're not the most accurate on youngsters, but it's still better than "eyeballing". I don't run a hundred head, so I've not had a lot of bulls, but of the ones I've had, I've only ever had one that BW epd went down, the rest jumped up after reporting just a few calves, I don't think I've ever had one whose weaning and yearling weights didn't go down after reporting a few calves. Management and being honest about the weights and when they are taken plays a roll in that I reckon. BW epd on the new bull as already gone up from his original epd, wouldn't surprise me in the least if his WW/YW drop after seeing his first calves reach one year old. Always get a kick out of this, the most profitable cow I own, is the one with the worst epd's of any cow I own, she has one of the highest birth weights with the lowest growth epd's. Go figure.

 

[alexfarms]

It's pretty tough to market cattle with no epd's and once you get a few generations down from the associations epds I don't think your simulated epds will mean much.

 

[KNERSIE]

If you don't mind sharing I'd love to see the formulation of how you calculated your simulated EPDs. Have you done it in a spreadsheet?

 

[Herefords.US]

It's pretty tough to market cattle with no epd's and once you get a few generations down from the associations epds I don't think your simulated epds will mean much.

I've been really vocal here about the misuse and overemphasis of EPDs, but John is right about needing the EPDs for marketing breeding stock.

And the very best way to get your cow herd and home grown and/or owned herd bulls proven, with more accurate EPDs, is to AI a few cows, selected randomly, to good highly proven sires each year.

George

 

[Herefords.US]

I'd agree that they're not the most accurate on youngsters, but it's still better than "eyeballing". I don't run a hundred head, so I've not had a lot of bulls, but of the ones I've had, I've only ever had one that BW epd went down, the rest jumped up after reporting just a few calves, I don't think I've ever had one whose weaning and yearling weights didn't go down after reporting a few calves. Management and being honest about the weights and when they are taken plays a roll in that I reckon. BW epd on the new bull as already gone up from his original epd, wouldn't surprise me in the least if his WW/YW drop after seeing his first calves reach one year old. Always get a kick out of this, the most profitable cow I own, is the one with the worst epd's of any cow I own, she has one of the highest birth weights with the lowest growth epd's. Go figure.

Paul, I think I know why that happens to your bulls' WW and YW EPDs. Because in your herd they generally sire 100% of the calf crop, thus his calves are "average" in your herd, their EPDs also move toward the breed average with each calf crop. Since you use bulls with EPDs higher than breed average, they will gradually drop toward breed average. The only way I can see to stop that from happening is to have a calf or two from a highly proven sire to "compare" in each calf crop. And then you have to be careful, because if you AI your very best producing cows, it'll negatively affect your own bull's EPDs and if you AI your very worst producing cows, it will artificially inflate them.

George

 

[BIZIN]

I didnt use any formula, the computer program does all the math. You just input that sires EPD's and Dams EPD's and hit calculate and it does it. I disagree about marketing bulls with EPD's. We have alot of customers who have gotten away from the purebred thing and have started breeding their purebred cows to other breeds and selling halfblood bulls for as much if not more than they were making on the purebreds. One thing we have been looking into is ABC's and seeing how they work.

 

[dun]

I didnt use any formula, the computer program does all the math. You just input that sires EPD's and Dams EPD's and hit calculate and it does it. I disagree about marketing bulls with EPD's. We have alot of customers who have gotten away from the purebred thing and have started breeding their purebred cows to other breeds and selling halfblood bulls for as much if not more than they were making on the purebreds. One thing we have been looking into is ABC's and seeing how they work.

What program do you use?

 

[Frankie]

Wondering how much stock you can put in EPD's?

I put a lot of stock into EPDs. So do commercial cattlemen looking for bulls....at least in this area.

 

[BIZIN]

Cattlemax CS. Also found out today that Bio Track that BIO has up and running will figure out EPD's and ABC's on your own herd as well as any information you can really think of. Looks like a good program, there are some things I prefer Cattlemax over, but they are one the right track to help Canadian Cattleman.

 

[dun]

You may get close with Cattlemax, but unless you put in all of the animals relatives you'll end up with a SWAG.

 

[rocket2222]

Paul, I think I know why that happens to your bulls' WW and YW EPDs. Because in your herd they generally sire 100% of the calf crop, thus his calves are "average" in your herd, their EPDs also move toward the breed average with each calf crop. Since you use bulls with EPDs higher than breed average, they will gradually drop toward breed average. The only way I can see to stop that from happening is to have a calf or two from a highly proven sire to "compare" in each calf crop. And then you have to be careful, because if you AI your very best producing cows, it'll negatively affect your own bull's EPDs and if you AI your very worst producing cows, it will artificially inflate them.

George

George, the bull I had previous to the one I have now, first year, all his calves, second year, his plus one AI calf, third year, his plus 2 AI calves. Bull I have now. First year, which was last year, all his calves, was going to AI one but didn't have time to pick up the semen. This year I should have his plus 2 AI calves, for the fall calves, which will be my last year of fall calving. I just checked to see what the old bulls ww/yw epd's are like now, and they're actually higher than they've ever been, I quit using him for 2 years and they've gone back up, he's also lost about 1 1/2 lb's off his bw and 1 1/2 % off his calving ease, If I don't use him for a couple more years he'll be a spread bull and I'll have to start using him again. :shock: Disregard my previous post, I realize now all I have to do is quit using them. :lol: I don't have any idea why his epd's did that, weird. Anyway I appreciate the help George, I am trying to mix it up a little to get a better idea about who's doing what