Electrical question

[CottageFarm]

I have a situation that Ive not run across before on the house were rehabbing.

I have a split/double 40 amp breaker in my service panel that has only one leg connected for 110v service instead of 220. 12/2 is run on it, and have only been able to find one receptacle connected to it, in the kitchen. So my question is this....
Is the breaker permitting the full 40 amps on that one leg, or is it only carrying 20 amps? (I don't have a multimeter, and don't know if they tell you amperage anyway)

I know its not right, and will be changing it eventually, but would like to use this receptacle for tools for right now if it is carrying just 20 amps

 

[backhoeboogie]

I have a situation that Ive not run across before on the house were rehabbing.

I have a split/double 40 amp breaker in my service panel that has only one leg connected for 110v service instead of 220. 12/2 is run on it, and have only been able to find one receptacle connected to it, in the kitchen. So my question is this....
Is the breaker permitting the full 40 amps on that one leg, or is it only carrying 20 amps? (I don't have a multimeter, and don't know if they tell you amperage anyway)

I know its not right, and will be changing it eventually, but would like to use this receptacle for tools for right now if it is carrying just 20 amps

22 amps on that one leg will likely not trip the breaker. You have no protection on over amping your wires or equipment. We've seen that before. Also people taking one leg off of the HW Heater to supply a light in the closet. Bad deal. People do it. It works. But it aint safe.

Swap breakers.

 

[John SD]

I have a situation that Ive not run across before on the house were rehabbing.

I have a split/double 40 amp breaker in my service panel that has only one leg connected for 110v service instead of 220. 12/2 is run on it, and have only been able to find one receptacle connected to it, in the kitchen. So my question is this....
Is the breaker permitting the full 40 amps on that one leg, or is it only carrying 20 amps? (I don't have a multimeter, and don't know if they tell you amperage anyway)

I know its not right, and will be changing it eventually, but would like to use this receptacle for tools for right now if it is carrying just 20 amps

I am certainly no electrician. But I would say yes, your single outlet is carrying a full 40 amp capacity which quite likely is beyond the safe capacity of 12/2 wire. I would probably go ahead and use tools in good working order on it. As long as the tool is functioning correctly you are OK. If you get a short in your tool the breaker is not likely to trip until someone get a bad jolt or something melts or starts burning :shock:

I suspect the 40 amp double breaker is a leftover from the original breaker panel installation, and the installer "run what they brung" so they didn't have to make another trip to the hardware store :roll: In the meantime, get a single 20 amp breaker on your next trip to the hardware store and change the double 40 out at first opportunity.

In my mind, a double 40 amp breaker should only be used on a heavy duty 220V circuit such as an electric range, air conditioner, or water heater. My :2cents: and worth what you paid.

 

[CottageFarm]

You have no protection on over amping your wires

That was my concern boogie, that I have 40 amps on that 12g wire, just wasn't sure if the split breaker would also split the amps.
I too have run across situations where someone has split a 220 behind an appliance, but never where it appears to be a dedicated, home run line.

Thank you John, you are correct that 12g is not rated for the higher amps. I don't recall exactly the max amperage , but I know its less than 25 amps for 12g.

 

[John SD]

You have no protection on over amping your wires

That was my concern boogie, that I have 40 amps on that 12g wire, just wasn't sure if the split breaker would also split the amps.
I too have run across situations where someone has split a 220 behind an appliance, but never where it appears to be a dedicated, home run line.

Thank you John, you are correct that 12g is not rated for the higher amps. I don't recall exactly the max amperage , but I know its less than 25 amps for 12g.

I really don't like to see anything less than 12 on any circuit, even multiple 300 watt incandescent lights in the barn. For 40 amps, I would think 10 or maybe even 8 guage would be in order :?: :idea: I don't see a 40 amp circuit to be necessary except in large resistance heating appliances or large electric motors.

 

[CottageFarm]

You have no protection on over amping your wires

That was my concern boogie, that I have 40 amps on that 12g wire, just wasn't sure if the split breaker would also split the amps.
I too have run across situations where someone has split a 220 behind an appliance, but never where it appears to be a dedicated, home run line.

Thank you John, you are correct that 12g is not rated for the higher amps. I don't recall exactly the max amperage , but I know its less than 25 amps for 12g.

I really don't like to see anything less than 12 on any circuit, even multiple 300 watt incandescent lights in the barn. For 40 amps, I would think 10 or maybe even 8 guage would be in order :?: :idea: I don't see a 40 amp circuit to be necessary except in large resistance heating appliances or large electric motors.

No, this definitely shouldn't be a 40 amp circuit. Since its run to the kitchen, it is required to be 20 amp. I don't think they ever wanted it to be 40 amp either, just cant figure out why they used an expensive 40 amp split instead of a run of the mill single 20 amp. Remodel is always interesting..... :lol2:

I don't have a problem using 14g on an existing 15 amp circuit where 14 g has already been used, but if its a new circuit, I do use all 12g, even on 15 amp circuits. That way it could, theoretically anyway, be upgraded to a 20 amp breaker in the future.

 

[dun]

I've got to tell about the disaster I found in the milk parlor when we first bought this place. They used 14 ga doubled up for all of the 220. 2 blacks twisted and connected to one leg 2 whites twisted and connected to the other leg and 2 bare wires twisted for the neutral. They didn;t use any boxes for connections in the attic. The wire was just twisted together and laid on a piece of wood. Didn't use a wire nut or even electricians tape. First thing I did was gutted all the wiring and started over.

 

[ga.prime]

I've got to tell about the disaster I found in the milk parlor when we first bought this place. They used 14 ga doubled up for all of the 220. 2 blacks twisted and connected to one leg 2 whites twisted and connected to the other leg and 2 bare wires twisted for the neutral. They didn;t use any boxes for connections in the attic. The wire was just twisted together and laid on a piece of wood. Didn't use a wire nut or even electricians tape. First thing I did was gutted all the wiring and started over.

:lol2: Electricians they were not.

 

[CottageFarm]

I've got to tell about the disaster I found in the milk parlor when we first bought this place. They used 14 ga doubled up for all of the 220. 2 blacks twisted and connected to one leg 2 whites twisted and connected to the other leg and 2 bare wires twisted for the neutral. They didn;t use any boxes for connections in the attic. The wire was just twisted together and laid on a piece of wood. Didn't use a wire nut or even electricians tape. First thing I did was gutted all the wiring and started over.

Well, that was....creative! 2x14 would make it 28g, right...and bigger must be better! :lol2: :lol2:
Its amazing to me the number of places, especially barns from what Ive seen, that don't burn to the ground.
Almost makes you wonder why anybody bothers with those pesky codes!

 

[dun]

I've got to tell about the disaster I found in the milk parlor when we first bought this place. They used 14 ga doubled up for all of the 220. 2 blacks twisted and connected to one leg 2 whites twisted and connected to the other leg and 2 bare wires twisted for the neutral. They didn;t use any boxes for connections in the attic. The wire was just twisted together and laid on a piece of wood. Didn't use a wire nut or even electricians tape. First thing I did was gutted all the wiring and started over.

Well, that was....creative! 2x14 would make it 28g, right...and bigger must be better! :lol2: :lol2:
Its amazing to me the number of places, especially barns from what Ive seen, that don't burn to the ground.
Almost makes you wonder why anybody bothers with those pesky codes!

No codes in this area, except you have to have a minimum of 5 acres to have a sweage lagoon. Other then that it's open season.

 

[dun]

I've got to tell about the disaster I found in the milk parlor when we first bought this place. They used 14 ga doubled up for all of the 220. 2 blacks twisted and connected to one leg 2 whites twisted and connected to the other leg and 2 bare wires twisted for the neutral. They didn;t use any boxes for connections in the attic. The wire was just twisted together and laid on a piece of wood. Didn't use a wire nut or even electricians tape. First thing I did was gutted all the wiring and started over.

:lol2: Electricians they were not.

I don;t know whihc of the 3 previous morons had done it. The first one got run over by his tractor and killed. The second one burned down the house (intentionally) cause he figured the place was worth more without it, he went bankrupt. The third guy went bankrupt too boying and selling cows through a cattle jockey.
The second guy was really a concrete contractor. He put the floor in a 40X60 shop but neglected to put any rebar or wire in the floor. In order to minimize the trip and fall hazards I had to grind down the 3-4 inch high ledges on the cracked and tilted concrete. The third idiot stored his bulk grain on the floor of that building piled against the wall. I darn near had to tear the wall down to get it back solid and pushed back into place. Even the 5x5 posts (pole barn style) were ppushed out 3 -4 feet and the roof sagged at that end.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I don't like electricity.
This is the reason I call a son that is a licensed Master electrician.
Conversation usually goes here is the debit card get what you need to fix it.

 

[lavacarancher]

The amount of current a particular wire size will carry depends on several factors - the type of insulation, whether or not the wire is in conduit, the distance the load is away from the breaker, etc. It boils down to the temperature rise of the conductor under load. 12 ga. thhn will carry 20 amps @ around 60 deg C. over a distance of a hundred feet or so, maybe less. Again, depends on a lot of things. To be on the safe side of the equation you should use 8 ga for 40 amps all other things being equal.

The breaker configuration you described is a 220V breaker rated at 40 amps. 220 volts is made up of two legs of 120V 180 degrees out of phase. If your load is 40 amps it is 40 amps on each side of the 120V therefore each side of the 40 amp breaker is rated at that load.

Typically, house wiring is figured at 20 amps for wall receptacles and 15 amps for lights. To calculate the load divide the wattage (all appliances and light bulbs are rated in watts) by the voltage to get amperage. Total up your amperage and when you get to your load rating for the breaker (and wire size) switch to a different circuit (breaker). For example: 100 watt light bulb/120 volts = .83 amps. Therefore you should be able to run eighteen 100 watt light bulbs off a 15 amp breaker. I would use nothing smaller than 12 ga. for that circuit. I AM NOT SUGGESTING THAT YOU RUN 18, 100 WATT LIGHT BULBS FROM ONE BREAKER. I am saying that according to the calculation you COULD do that. Most folks wire lights according to the room.

 

[CottageFarm]

Thanks Lavaca, that was my original assumption, but then got to hoping I could put this particular task off for a while longer. Ive had the circuit turned off since we discovered the 40 amp breaker, but was hoping to be able to put it into service for a saw while building cabinets. Guess I got to make that trip into town tomorrow :yuck:

 

[Nesikep]

It would be safer to move that circuit to some other breaker even as a temporary measure.. do you have any 20 amp breakers in that box? you could run both circuits off the same one temporarily... perhaps one is a bathroom baseboard heater that won't be on in the summertime anyhow..

lavacarancher is spot on.

 

[greybeard]

If you don't have any extra (unused or empty) spaces in your dist panel, you may be able to sustitute some slimline or mini breaker in place of the regular sized breakers, thus freeing up a space.
Be careful how you do this--it is best to split the total load across both bus bars as evenly as possible.