Effect of HeadOut on Protien content in Bermuda

[dcara]

Every paper I have read over the years regarding the protien content of Bermuda only discusses the subject relative to the cutting interval. Generally they seem to agree that 3-4 week cutting intervals provide the most pounds of protien/acre. I have searched, but have never found any papers that discuss the effect of headout on protien for Bermuda. The only thing I have read that mentions headout in Bermuda at all is how drought stress can cause seed head prodcution within a week after cutting. This lack of information regarding the effect of headout on protien levels in Bermuda seems curious since protien for other small grains such as Rye grass are known to decrease significantly after headout and hence cutting is recommnded before headout. Does anyone have any reference information on this subject?

 

[JustSimmental]

The only time I have ever seen bermuda head out at 3-4 weeks is during drought, but like everythng else if you wait (or have to wait) until bermuda has headed out your Cp will decline drastically. I have been baling that awful stuff for 30 years and this is what I have found.
(depending alot on variety)

Baling 3-4 weeks > 16-18% CP and 58% TDN
Baling 6 weeks > 12-14% CP 55% TDN
Baling 8 weeks > 10-12% CP and 52% TDN
Baling 10 weeks > 6- 8% CP and 50% TDN
Baling 12 weeks > 4-5% CP and 45% TDN

 

[TexasBred]

The only time I have ever seen bermuda head out at 3-4 weeks is during drought, but like everythng else if you wait (or have to wait) until bermuda has headed out your Cp will decline drastically. I have been baling that awful stuff for 30 years and this is what I have found.
(depending alot on variety)

Baling 3-4 weeks > 16-18% CP and 58% TDN
Baling 6 weeks > 12-14% CP 55% TDN
Baling 8 weeks > 10-12% CP and 52% TDN
Baling 10 weeks > 6- 8% CP and 50% TDN
Baling 12 weeks > 4-5% CP and 45% TDN

AND that only applies to your bales.

 

[JustSimmental]

No, I'd say that was a good average for Bermuda, altho some newer varieties do have an improved TDN.

JS

AND that only applies to your bales.

 

[MasseyFerg]

No, I'd say that was a good average for Bermuda, altho some newer varieties do have an improved TDN.

JS

AND that only applies to your bales.

Plain ole coastal is good enough for me. put out 100-125 lbs of actual N per acre and cut every 5 to 6 weeks and you will have a high enough protein and TDN that no supplemental feed will be needed. Fertilizer is sky high but cheaper than near $400 ton high energy breeder cubes.

17.2% protein TDN= 60.9%. ADF= 35.9% ( 4 1/2 weeks)
19.3% protein, TDN= 62.2, ADF= 34.3 (4 weeks old)
15% (no TDN given) 6 weeks old
13.4% (no tdn given) 6 weeks old
14.5% (no tdn given) 5 weeks
10.3% protein, (no tdn given) 7 weeks old
12.8% protein, TDN= 58.9 (1st cutting)
11.5% protein, TDN=65, ADF=33.9 (august cutting)
11.2% protein, TDN-64.8, ADF= 34.1 (august cutting)

Dairy quality coastal is supposed to be 14-16% protein and 65% NDF and 30% ADF. I can easily hit the protein but don't know how to get the ndf higher and adf lower.

To the OP, my coastal doesn't go to seed- or very little usually does. In a drought situation like now, everything goes to seed as it goes into survival mode trying to save itself.

sure wish it would rain,getting tired of looking at my MF stuff just sitting there.

 

[JustSimmental]

yeah -- I just refuse to bale hay anymore--I can buy it cheaper, so that is what I do.

 

[Jogeephus]

Good question. Don't know the answer. Maybe the researchers are intentionally dodging this one for the sake of the grass fed folks.

 

[TexasBred]

Are all these stats taken from someone else's research or do you really let your own hay fields get that far past prime just so you can test it and come up with these numbers. Most of the coastal in this area wouldn't be 12% protein if it was growing out of a bag of fertilizer and as you move farther East it gets even lower. And if you'll cut that hay a bit earlier you should have a lower ADF as well as a lower NDF due to lack of developing hemicellulose and lignin content.

 

[MasseyFerg]

I have mine tested by Ward Lab. I cut my hay for what class of animal I am feeding. If I have a bunch of dry cows, I will let the hay get more mature (6-7 weeks) and feed them the 10% stuff. If I have a bunch of heifers they get the 17-19% (4-5week stuff). Also, sometimes it actually rains and you have to wait to cut the hay, thus the difference in cutting periods. 6 weeks is probably a good compromise between quality and tonnage. If I am selling hay I let it go 6-7 weeks for more tonnage for two reasons. one most won't pay for good high protein hay here and two if its green they are happy.

The amount of protein in the hay is due to the amount of fertilizer (N) that you apply. 12% protein is easy to get. If you can't get it, then quit being so damn cheap and throw out some nitrogen. I can't tell you how many guys I know that put out 100 lbs/A of triple 17 and think that they are "making hay". These same guys have never done a soil test. Now that urea is the N source for most it's worse. Since you can lose up to 30% due to volatization, you need to throw out extra in the first place in case you loose some. Yeah it's expensive but so are 20% high energy breeder cubes at $380 ton.

I get an ADF of mid thirties at 4-5 weeks and I can't cut any sooner than that. Sure I could cut at 3 to 3 1/2 weeks and I might get protein of 20+ % and an ADF of 30% but the yield would probably be 1/2 ton per acre, so wouldnt be worth it.

 

[TexasBred]

Massey most hay producers around here will cut that often (3-4 weeks), fertilize according to soil test and in recommended amounts and 12-14% protein is still unheard of. Hay grown, tested and entered in hay shows won't test but around 16% and they've literally been "hand fed". ;-) Some places just don't produce as well as others. Hay cut at 7-8 weeks around here is nothing but filler. Seems fertilizing more lightly and cutting sooner even for hay to be fed to dry cows would give you a much better product with more digestibility and feed value while limiting the crude protein values to the levels you need for the purpose.

 

[dcara]

Thanks for all the replies. I've emailed the Hunt County Agent who then sent the inquiry to TAMU. I'll let you know when I here something.

Regarding Nitrogen, I pamper my Arrow Leaf Clover and probably have about 30% coverage in my coastal fields right now. As of last weekend it had died back about 90%. Couldn't believe it lasted this long this year. I've never been really sure how to determine the amount of Nitrogen clover releases back into the soil during decomposition. That is, how many pounds of clover does it take to produce a pound of Nitrogen? I'm sure it probably depends on many variables. I'll have to find time to research that someday.

 

[MasseyFerg]

Massey most hay producers around here will cut that often (3-4 weeks), fertilize according to soil test and in recommended amounts and 12-14% protein is still unheard of. Hay grown, tested and entered in hay shows won't test but around 16% and they've literally been "hand fed". ;-) Some places just don't produce as well as others. Hay cut at 7-8 weeks around here is nothing but filler. Seems fertilizing more lightly and cutting sooner even for hay to be fed to dry cows would give you a much better product with more digestibility and feed value while limiting the crude protein values to the levels you need for the purpose.

If we know that to produce a ton of coastal takes 50-15-50 with soil of a proper ph and adequate water (maybe throw in a few trace minerals) then there should be no reason for your or anybody elses coastal to be less protein than mine. This is a worn out cotton farm that never saw a drop of commercial fertilizer until the seventies. Some is sandy, some is clay based loam. Both soils will produce the same hay analysis.
I still say that you aren't throwing enough N on it. Nitrogen makes protein. They are related; protein is made of 16% nitrogen so the more N you apply the higher your protien content.
For example, I apply 250lb/A of 46-0-0 before the first cutting and after each additional cutting. If I need P, I use 36-18-0 and throw out 300 lbs/A. Then I will apply 0-0-60 as a separate application (enough for the entire year).
pH is 5.4 to 6.0 on my fields

Read post #2 in this thread
http://www.haytalk.com/forums/f2/coastal-bermuda-crude-protein-content-vs-time-between-cuttings-110/ hay wilson and i agree on these numbers, he is in Texas like you, I am an OKIE, We both get the same protein content.

 

[TexasBred]

Sounds like he probably bales a lot of hay but I lot of the numbers he throws (500 lbs. of nitrogen per acre and others) around are pure bull along with some of the carte blanche statements relative to cattle etc.
But since all we need is 12% protein I guess we don't have far to go. :mrgreen:

 

[1982vett]

I think you could deduce that protien levels in the leaf will decline. As stated, if a seed head forms it is in reproduction mode or survival mode. The plant should be concentrating on reproduction rather than growth. Moving nutrients from leaves to seed head and maybe even roots as dormancy sets in. :2cents:

 

[TexasBred]

I think you could deduce that protien levels in the leaf will decline. As stated, if a seed head forms it is in reproduction mode or survival mode. The plant should be concentrating on reproduction rather than growth. Moving nutrients from leaves to seed head and maybe even roots as dormancy sets in. :2cents:

Vet allowed to grow past "prime" the entire plant begins to lose protein as well as become less and less digestible. Sort of like that good okra in the garden. ;-) Let it get 8 inches long and try it. Lots of cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin in it then and very little nutritional.

The amount of protein in the hay is due to the amount of fertilizer (N) that you apply. 12% protein is easy to get. If you can't get it, then quit being so be nice cheap and throw out some nitrogen. I can't tell you how many guys I know that put out 100 lbs/A of triple 17 and think that they are "making hay". These same guys have never done a soil test. Now that urea is the N source for most it's worse. Since you can lose up to 30% due to volatization, you need to throw out extra in the first place in case you loose some. Yeah it's expensive but so are 20% high energy breeder cubes at $380 ton.

As with anything there is a point of diminishing return. Using huge amounts of fertilizer to get hay with extremely high protein would definitely have that point. There are times when the $380 or even $400 cubes would do you a much better job and be a bargain.

 

[MasseyFerg]

I think you could deduce that protien levels in the leaf will decline. As stated, if a seed head forms it is in reproduction mode or survival mode. The plant should be concentrating on reproduction rather than growth. Moving nutrients from leaves to seed head and maybe even roots as dormancy sets in. :2cents:

Vet allowed to grow past "prime" the entire plant begins to lose protein as well as become less and less digestible. Sort of like that good okra in the garden. ;-) Let it get 8 inches long and try it. Lots of cellulose, hemicellulose and lignin in it then and very little nutritional.

The amount of protein in the hay is due to the amount of fertilizer (N) that you apply. 12% protein is easy to get. If you can't get it, then quit being so be nice cheap and throw out some nitrogen. I can't tell you how many guys I know that put out 100 lbs/A of triple 17 and think that they are "making hay". These same guys have never done a soil test. Now that urea is the N source for most it's worse. Since you can lose up to 30% due to volatization, you need to throw out extra in the first place in case you loose some. Yeah it's expensive but so are 20% high energy breeder cubes at $380 ton.

As with anything there is a point of diminishing return. Using huge amounts of fertilizer to get hay with extremely high protein would definitely have that point. There are times when the $380 or even $400 cubes would do you a much better job and be a bargain.

The point is you dont need huge amounts of N to get quality hay, 100 lbs A of N will do it.
your and my math don't compute. If it cost me 60 to 75 bucks for a ton of hay for fertilizer to make 16-19% protein hay, even if I add labor for baling, etc, its still a whole lot cheaper to raise my own hay than pay 400 bucks for cubes. Even with fertilizer as high as it is, as long as grain is as high as it is , hay will always be cheaper than range cubes.

So I guess you are finally admitting that you have never seen any high protein hay in your area because nobody in you area is willing to put out the 100 lbs of ACTUAL N per acre to get the good protein hay? that was the whole point of our conversation you said that nobody in your area every made high protein hay. I say that they don't know how or are to cheap to spend the money on fertilizer. BTW here in OK, urea is 500 to 700 bucks ton depending on where you go

 

[TexasBred]

The point is you dont need huge amounts of N to get quality hay, 100 lbs A of N will do it.
your and my math don't compute. If it cost me 60 to 75 bucks for a ton of hay for fertilizer to make 16-19% protein hay, even if I add labor for baling, etc, its still a whole lot cheaper to raise my own hay than pay 400 bucks for cubes. Even with fertilizer as high as it is, as long as grain is as high as it is , hay will always be cheaper than range cubes.

So I guess you are finally admitting that you have never seen any high protein hay in your area because nobody in you area is willing to put out the 100 lbs of ACTUAL N per acre to get the good protein hay? that was the whole point of our conversation you said that nobody in your area every made high protein hay. I say that they don't know how or are to cheap to spend the money on fertilizer. BTW here in OK, urea is 500 to 700 bucks ton depending on where you go.

Your entire thesis has been demeaning those that DON'T use enough nitrogen, thus low quality hay and now you come back with 100 lbs. of nitrogen will do it?? "Mr. Hay" said use 500 lbs....I also don't think you're figuring all of your cost into production. And no, there is no 16-18% hay in this area. The best hay I've seen is grown in the Brazos River Bottom and the guy is known for good hay yet it won't hit 14% let alone 18% and he's anything but "cheap" (Neither are most of the others I know) and he knows how to grow and put up hay. He sells quite a bit to the horse farms in his area. With your hay quality I suppose all you need is more acreage to meet the demand of the dairies and horse ranches beating your door down. Same for your mentor.

 

[Jogeephus]

Are all these stats taken from someone else's research or do you really let your own hay fields get that far past prime just so you can test it and come up with these numbers. Most of the coastal in this area wouldn't be 12% protein if it was growing out of a bag of fertilizer and as you move farther East it gets even lower. And if you'll cut that hay a bit earlier you should have a lower ADF as well as a lower NDF due to lack of developing hemicellulose and lignin content.

You do realize you are arguing with someone who was just asking how to use a tedder the other day. Also, this person is from Oklahoma.

Just thought I'd mention this.

 

[1982vett]

Yes TB...but if I understood correctly the question has a twist to it...such as now, in stressed situations where it gets a good rain, starts it's rapid growth but also jumps immediatelhy into seed production. It's 3 weeks growth but fully headed....how does that effect protien and tdn quality...the leaf is still young and tender and activly growing but the seed production is supressing growth...

 

[TexasBred]

Yes TB...but if I understood correctly the question has a twist to it...such as now, in stressed situations where it gets a good rain, starts it's rapid growth but also jumps immediatelhy into seed production. It's 3 weeks growth but fully headed....how does that effect protien and tdn quality...the leaf is still young and tender and activly growing but the seed production is supressing growth...

Vet you got what you got...the grass that's headed and heat stressed has already developed the parts of fiber that are literally non digestible and protein levels declining. That can't be undone. Any new growth, new leaves etc. should be higher quality so at least a rain would make for more grass...some pretty worthless, some not so bad, but none prime. Next cutting WITH RAIN and fertilizer should be good.