Dying calves

[trixie]

We purchased 9 calves from a broker over 3 months ago. We bottle fed them out and they have been on pasture and grain ever since. (Jersey's) We have been losing them one by one. They are fine one day and dying the next. We have had other calves over the years in the same pasture and no problems whatsoever. The first batch we had from this guy no problems, but this last batch crappy. We have 4 left and have one of them down right now. Can't get up at all, won't stand even with help. We were told it is probably clostridium? Also does this come from the cows during gestation. Everything I have looked up doesn't say much and is very confusing. Anybody else have any suggestions on what it could be or comments on what to do?
Thank You

 

[dun]

Get the calf posted as soon as it dies. Blind guessing won;t solve the problem, you gotta know for sure what you're dealing with

 

[randiliana]

Well, I would suggest getting a vet out there ASAP. Have him look at the one that is down now, and get the dead ones post mortemed.

If it is clostridium, the disease is found in the soil. Were these calves vaccinated?

 

[rockridgecattle]

get a vet out. Best way to diagnose a problem and treat, and the most cost effective.
A vet should be your first line of defense if you have healthe concern for animals and don't know what to do. They are in your area and they should be famillar with your herd. When it comes to $ and cents, the best bang for your buck when dealing with the unknown.

Our vet would be the first person we would call when we have a animal related problem that we can not figure out or know how to treat.

Not to knock these great people on this good board, but unseen is always hard to diagnose. A vet should be the first call. It could mean the difference between a quick recovery, a slow chronic recovery, death of a single animal or many.

JMO

 

[larryshoat]

Do calves have a fever when they are sick?Have they been wormed and vaccinated?If we do these things as standard management practices we can elininate some of the things that can cost us so much time and money.At this age we start to think about these calves getting a little tougher,but these seem to be going the other way.Did these calves have scours bad when they were young?

 

[trixie]

They had 3 days supposably on mom before we got them. Yes they did have scours and they seem to still have them somewhat. The ones left were all given a shot of Alpha-7 and some probiotics. They will all get electrolytes at night for the next few day's. The one calf that was down yesterday was up last night and eating and is doing better already today. He was bloated along with another one. The other 2 seem to be ok so far. We have never had this problem in all the years we have raised calves. We were told because of all the rain that they are like this. We would lock them up at night or during the day when we had any indication of rain for the day or night. So I guess I'm not sure how they got this. Never heard of it before either. Anybody else have this problem before?

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

They had 3 days supposably on mom before we got them. Yes they did have scours and they seem to still have them somewhat. The ones left were all given a shot of Alpha-7 and some probiotics. They will all get electrolytes at night for the next few day's. The one calf that was down yesterday was up last night and eating and is doing better already today. He was bloated along with another one. The other 2 seem to be ok so far. We have never had this problem in all the years we have raised calves. We were told because of all the rain that they are like this. We would lock them up at night or during the day when we had any indication of rain for the day or night. So I guess I'm not sure how they got this. Never heard of it before either. Anybody else have this problem before?

Problems I see:

• 1. Got calves too young.
  2. They should have had a full vaccination program before you got them (e.g., BVD, IBR, PI3, BRSV, Blackleg, De-Wormed).
  3. If they didn't have their 1st vaccination series, then you are probably shooting in the dark and only treating symptoms.
  4. Healthy vaccinated calves should not have any problems (even if they are weaned too early).
  
  JMO...

 

[randiliana]

Problems I see:

• 1. Got calves too young.
  2. They should have had a full vaccination program before you got them (e.g., BVD, IBR, PI3, BRSV, Blackleg, De-Wormed).
  3. If they didn't have their 1st vaccination series, then you are probably shooting in the dark and only treating symptoms.
  4. Healthy vaccinated calves should not have any problems (even if they are weaned too early).
  
  JMO...

Well, I must point out that for the whole point of raising bottle calves is to get them young. And at that age they are too young to vaccinate.

The biggest problem I see is that they have not at least talked to a vet yet. We are just shooting in the dark on here. Kinda hard to diagnose something when you can't see the problem, and the symptoms described are too general to even hazard a reasonable guess.

 

[trixie]

We are working with a professional calf raiser. We have worked with her for over 3 years. She has seen more than some of the vets in the area. She has over 14 years of experiance and doesn't just guess and say try this first and if this doesn't work we'll do this. Which is what most of the vets will do in this area, if you can get them to your farm in a timely manner.

 

[larryshoat]

We are working with a professional calf raiser. We have worked with her for over 3 years. She has seen more than some of the vets in the area. She has over 14 years of experiance and doesn't just guess and say try this first and if this doesn't work we'll do this. Which is what most of the vets will do in this area, if you can get them to your farm in a timely manner.

Vets can be frustrating if you don't have a good one.You make a good point that many vets just don't treat enough cattle to be good at it.I know of a good calf vet in Wisconsin.He will talk to you about raising calves and if he is too far from you maybe he could recomend a vet that is closer.
Here is his website http://calfdoctor.com/index_files/AboutUS.htm My guess is that your dealing with a salmonella outbreak.We found that the more we worked on salmonella vaccinations the less trouble we had in this age calf.

 

[msscamp]

They had 3 days supposably on mom before we got them. The ones left were all given a shot of Alpha-7 and some probiotics.

Alpha-7 sounds like a vaccination to me and, if that is the case - you've probably wasted your time and money, because a calf cannot utilize vaccinations until their immune system develops at roughly 3-4 months of age.

We have never had this problem in all the years we have raised calves. We were told because of all the rain that they are like this. We would lock them up at night or during the day when we had any indication of rain for the day or night. So I guess I'm not sure how they got this. Never heard of it before either. Anybody else have this problem before?

That is the wonderful thing about the cattle business - just when you think you've got it figured out, something comes along to prove you wrong. No, I'm not being a smarty pants - I'm simply being honest. Define 'lock them up at night or during the day when we any indication of rain for the day or night'? If you're talking about shutting them up in a barn or shed, you are shooting yourself in the foot. While it is true that newborn bottle calves can (and usually do) develop scours from becoming chilled due to a sudden rain/snowstorm, once they have reached a few days old they do just fine assuming they have shelter available and can get in out of the rain/snow. On the other hand, however, shutting them up in a barn/shed means that they have to breathe the ammonia from their own urine - combine that with the dust from any bedding provided, and that is most generally a recipe for illness. Couple those givens with a few calves of unknown history/background, and you've got a very good start for an epidemic of problems.

• 2. They should have had a full vaccination program before you got them (e.g., BVD, IBR, PI3, BRSV, Blackleg, De-Wormed).
  
  Ummmm, perhaps you didn't read the entire post - the poster was talking about bottle calves acquired at the age of 3 days of age, or so. Calves under the age of 3-4 months old cannot utilize vaccinations, because their immune system is not fully developed.
  
  3. If they didn't have their 1st vaccination series, then you are probably shooting in the dark and only treating symptoms.
  
  You're killing me, you're just killing me. :roll:
  
  4. Healthy vaccinated calves should not have any problems (even if they are weaned too early).
  
  I think you probably need to get out a little more - at the very least expand your horizons beyond your farm. Healthy, vaccinated calves can and do have problems when they are seperated from their momma's, run through the salebarn (or even sold via private treaty), loaded on a truck, and shipped for any length of time. If that were not the case, there would be no need to quarantine new cattle - regardless of the source purchased from - now would there?
  
  JMO...

 

[rockridgecattle]

i believe the vaccinations come from the mother's colostrum at this age (days old). If the mother was done pre breeding then they are covered if big if they got adequate colostrum early on. It's that half life thing.
Each month the amount of antibodies from passive transfer decrease by half. So in goes the colostrum, why so important, month later the anitbodies decrease by half, calfs own immunity starts the building process, next month by half again, following month half again and so on untill there is no more passive transfer. by the third month the calf should have had it's first round of vaccinations, to start it's own building process.
No matter how good an experienced friend is there is no sub for a vet. can this mentor do tests? Take the calf to the vet and fecal, or blood. Can this mentor check the heart and lungs for lung damage or a whole in the heart? (Been there had that problem..the heart)
If you are going to have cattle you have to have a relationship with a vet. A vet is only going to say try this or that if they can't see the calf. How else are they going to know what to try. They are shooting in the dark almost as much as we are.

yes it's good to get advice from a friend. yes if a situations is handleable by us as cattle farmers, Go ahead and treat. But if it does not work basically the money is going out the a$$ end of the animal. And cattle farming has a small profit margin already.

I compare it to kids. not that i hav any, but i have friend who do. You got a sick child. Or a sick pet even. You've done what you can. You see no improvement. You have no idea what is wrong. what do you do? Delay treatment by calling a friend? Or do you call a doctor? Make use of Emerg? Make an apointment with the docotor's office?
Calves are no more different.
And more than one calf dieing states there is a problem and a vet needs to get their butt out and find a solution

 

[randiliana]

Very good post Rockridge. You stated what I wanted to in a very nice way (which is why I didn't). Everyone should remember these words.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Thank you.
i don't mean to harp on this. I have great respect for the people of this board.
But a vet is the first line of defense. It can mean the difference between saving the animal or having a chronic because of trying everyone and their dog's (sorry) solution. By the time 5 or 10 people offer their opinion and experience the calf could be past the point of no return.
I'm not saying this because I do not respect the people of this board cause I do. But our vet knows our herd and their health. She knows our vaccination protocols. She knows our experience and our abilities. She is the family doctor for our cows, dogs, cats and our sanity.

 

[Brandonm2]

This is just wild speculation; but it sounds like something viral...like BVD or as has already been suggested Clostridial (blackleg). No the calves are NOT too young for a 7-way clostridia vaccination.....

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/pro ... G1NDP50GQ7

I think that there are SOME BVD vaccines which can be administered to calves younger than 3 months; though there the best protection would be to come from a vaccinated cow herd.

Don't vaccinate ANYTHING until you consult with a vet. Your little herd already has whatever illness it has. Depending
on WHAT you are fighting and what product used, vaccinations NOW could provide some immunity and save the day OR could actually make things worse.

This sounds like a hopeless disaster already; but call a vet.

 

[GMN]

We purchased 9 calves from a broker over 3 months ago. We bottle fed them out and they have been on pasture and grain ever since. (Jersey's) We have been losing them one by one. They are fine one day and dying the next. We have had other calves over the years in the same pasture and no problems whatsoever. The first batch we had from this guy no problems, but this last batch crappy. We have 4 left and have one of them down right now. Can't get up at all, won't stand even with help. We were told it is probably clostridium? Also does this come from the cows during gestation. Everything I have looked up doesn't say much and is very confusing. Anybody else have any suggestions on what it could be or comments on what to do?
Thank You

I have had this also, in some calves, comes on fast, sometimes they appear to get better, only within 12 hours to be in a coma like stage, then dead. If you ever see them in the stage of not getting up, sort of laying there with the eyes fixed, they are beyond help, and will die in a short time.

I use Calf Guard at birth now, I know U cant do this, because you do not have them then, but it does help, fights all the bad bugs, E-Coli, Coranavirus, and a few others.

In this case I'm thinking Salmonella. I think Salmonella is more of a problem and more fatal than Clostridium. At first signs of diarrhea now, I give this Bo Bax 2, it requires huge amounts subQ, but I have been using it for about 4 months and it has turned around several calves already.

The clostridium bugs, will make them shed the linings of the intestines, a very basty bug.

I have taken calves to the Vet, and I must say what a waste of money. Very seldom, when they get too far gone can they be saved even by a Vet, using IV methods, etc.. I sure would recommend a necropsy though to verify which bug it is.

One more thing, I would move the rest to another area.

Good luck

Gail

 

[trixie]

Well good news, The Alpha shot worked. Plus they all got a mouth of probotics. In one month they will get another Alpha shot. The bloating is gone and he can get up on his own now. WE cannot seperate them because the older cows are in the back pasture. Pretty soon when our heifers are old enough we won't need to buy calves anymore. 3 years seems like along time from now.

 

[grannysoo]

Glad things are working out!