Durana Clover and Bermuda Grass

[MrBilly]

Well thanks for your comments. We work very hard at it.

Anyway, I posted some new pics of the Durana clover taken today. They are at the end of the album, so you can see that there has been good regrowth of the fescue that last year looked like it was being taken over by the Durana. The fight seems to be on. Who will win? More pictures next year, God willing.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictu ... 4291154745

 

[Chuckie]

MrBilly, Really nice place. :clap: Hard works shows.
Looks like I can't lure you here for a summer job, I mean vacation! :lol2: I have two areas that I need to establish a cross over. One is spring fed on another property and the other is a water run off ditch. The run off ditch takes on tremendous amounts of water since the property in front of me is on a slope and all drains into this ditch. There is a gentle slope on about 1000 acres that drains into two ditches. One ditch is to the right and one ditch is to the left of my property line. At times, it gets over the road, about twice a year. But still has a lot of drainage with one inch of rain. I guess I need to ask a soil conservationalist what he would suggest. It is rich ground and holds moisture really well.
Thanks for posting the additional pictures of the Durana and fescue. It gives me a better I idea of what I want.
Your pasture is exactly what I will try to establish. Do you find that it puts weight on your cattle and the girls with calves, do they hold their weight fairly well? You may of already said, but did you sow in the spring or in the fall? (Sorry for so many questions)

 

[dun]

When I talked with the agronomist about our problem of the clover crowding out the fescue he said that putting 60 lbs of nitrogen on it early in the spring would helpp. His thoughts are that the grass will get a better start then the clover and will shade the clover so it can;t become as dominant.
That may work, but as soon as it's grazed or cut for hay the same problem would just come back.
Don;t know if it would work or not, but I decided to just put up with the problem of too much clvoer

dun

 

[MrBilly]

Chuckie,

I think a visit by the NRCS people would be useful for your situation. The clover is drilled in the fall. The girls do maintain themselves well on the mixture.

Bill

 

[Chuckie]

MrBilly, you are right on with talking to the NCRS people. I will do that before I start slicing into the ditch bank. The erosion here is almost gone with the no tilling. I do have one spot where it drains into the ditch that has continued to wash a bit, but not bad. I will need to jump on that spot.
Two more questions about the Durana, and I'll let it rest. Have you tried cutting it for hay yet? I wondered if the stand was tall enough that it can be cut for hay. Or have you heard of anyone in your area that has cut it for hay? I wondered if it did OK for this. If the NRCS people recommended this in your area, do you have an email address that I could get in touch with them? This clover has only been sold to two people here, and they do not remember the names. My ag man has never heard of it. I am not finding much on the internet about the height for hay cutting and if it cured well or did it wither away. Thanks for answering all the questions. Dun made a good point on fertilizing with nitrogen for holding it back a bit if you wanted more grass. I wonder after putting the nitrogen down, and then the heat comes with the summer, does the grass grow a bit more after that. Our clover goes mostly dormant in July and August. I bet his cattle are fat too if they are standing in clover. Seems clover comes up at the right time. In the spring after winter when they need to put on a bit of weight after the cold weather. Then in the fall before they start going into using their fat reserves for the winter time.

 

[MrBilly]

MrBilly, you are right on with talking to the NCRS people. I will do that before I start slicing into the ditch bank. The erosion here is almost gone with the no tilling. I do have one spot where it drains into the ditch that has continued to wash a bit, but not bad. I will need to jump on that spot.
Two more questions about the Durana, and I'll let it rest. Have you tried cutting it for hay yet? I wondered if the stand was tall enough that it can be cut for hay. Or have you heard of anyone in your area that has cut it for hay? I wondered if it did OK for this. If the NRCS people recommended this in your area, do you have an email address that I could get in touch with them? This clover has only been sold to two people here, and they do not remember the names. My ag man has never heard of it. I am not finding much on the internet about the height for hay cutting and if it cured well or did it wither away. Thanks for answering all the questions. Dun made a good point on fertilizing with nitrogen for holding it back a bit if you wanted more grass. I wonder after putting the nitrogen down, and then the heat comes with the summer, does the grass grow a bit more after that. Our clover goes mostly dormant in July and August. I bet his cattle are fat too if they are standing in clover. Seems clover comes up at the right time. In the spring after winter when they need to put on a bit of weight after the cold weather. Then in the fall before they start going into using their fat reserves for the winter time.

Chuckie,

Dr. Hoveland is a friend of ours and he was the one that recommended the Durana, not NRCS. We have not baled it, and I sent Hoveland an email this morning asking him if he knows of it being baled and what is the tallest he has seen it in the ungrazed situation? He should get back to me in a day or two?

We are unable to get K and P without some nitrogen along with it, so last year I did fertilize early and that is where I think all of this added to the aggressiveness of the clover????? Clover does also respond to nitrogen, so not sure about Dun's agronomist's advice????

Durana continues to grow thoughout the heat and dryness of the summer. It may be slower, and a bit shorter, but given a slight bit of moisture it takes off again.

Billy

 

[Chuckie]

Thanks MrBilly for asking your people at the Soil Conservation Service. If it does grow in the heat, then it for sure is what I want.

 

[Tod Dague]

Another thing I was told that the bermudas that have been crossed with common bermudas, will revert to common bermuda after several years. I like common bermuda. They say Tifton, etc... will eventually turn back to common bermuda after several years. Why and how, I don't know. I didn't realize it produced a fertile seed to sprout, unless from the roots, it just loses the weaker gene.

We have some experience with Costal, Tifton 85 and common. The costal is decades old and has not reverted back the Tifton is only 5 years old and still going strong. The seeded varieties will cross back with common and continue to do so until you reach a point of pretty much just common.

 

[sidney411]

Chuckie, thanks for asking these questions. We are looking into the EQUIP program this year and I have applied for 60 acres of overseeding with clover. The man from the NCRS office said we plant in the fall and in the early spring to lock the cows out of the clover pastures for aprox. 30 days to allow for reseeding. We have an older model JD no till drill but was told we needed a clover box. What is and how does a clover box work? Can we add it to our drill. The man from the NCRS office didn't know how to explain what it was he just said he knew one when he saw one, and said our drill wouldn't work as it is.

 

[MrBilly]

Several things. The Cheyenne Bermuda seed is not supposed to revert back to common according to Pennington.

As for the legume box on a no-till drill, you need such a box because the clover seed is very very small and the legume box allows for placing out small amounts. One uses this same box for the Cheyenne Bermuda seed since it too is very small.

To Chuckies question regarding baling clover, this is the response I received from Dr. Carl Hoveland at the University of Georgia,

"Making hay from any kind of white clover is a big challenge
as it has such a high water content. It CAN be done but it
will take very good drying weather and careful work to keep
the dry leaves from falling off the petioles. Of course, if
one can dry it decently, then it will be outstanding hay.

As for the height of Durana vs Regal ladino, it would be
very difficult to say that Regal is always taller. The best
way to distinguish differences between them is the leaf size -
Durana leaves are smaller than ladino clover. You should also
find more leaves close to the ground and more stolons on
grazed stands of Durana than Regal ladino. Carl"

That's if for today.

Billy

 

[dun]

On some drills the clover box is called the grass box, never figured out why.
On most drills it has a seperate feed and is generally a much smaller box with it's own settings.

dun

 

[dun]

Clover does also respond to nitrogen, so not sure about Dun's agronomist's advice????

Asked about that today after seeing your question. Didn't dawn on me at the time, but here we were discussing cool season grasses that generally get started before the clover. The clover once it gets started passes the grasses by. His concept was that the grass would grow faster sooner and shade the clover. He just kind of got a deer in the headlights look when I asked him about bermuda.

dun

 

[Chuckie]

Thanks MrBilly for sharing your knowledge on this, and finding out the answers to some of the questions. I do greatly appreciate it. Too many times I have done things that I didn't have enough knowledge about and wished I had of asked more questions. I have learned a few things by mistakes, but I don't like the expensive ones.
I did not relize that bermuda could be drilled since the seed is almost like pollen. I never did ask for one thing. I just thought I had that one figured out. That is good to know. I did drill the orchard grass and red clover before. Seems the clover seed was coated that I used in the drill. I don't know anything about being able to add a grass box on a drill. I will ask tonight if anyone has had success with it. I stay in contact with a man from John Deere that has done about everything that could be done, then some. He is awfully handy.
I am going to seed the Durana in the pasture for sure along with the orchard grass, red clover and lespedeza. I will cut it for hay the first couple of years or till it gets established well. And I may leave it a hay field. Then in the bermuda hay field, I will also drill the Durana. I am hoping that the grass mixture with the clover will let it cure a little better than just straight clover. I also was told that pure white clover is hard to cure the way we want it to like MrBilly stated. Maybe the grass will keep the clover from matting and hold it where it can dry better. I am trying to decide if I need to seed the bermuda first in the spring, then come back that fall and seed the Durana in behind it. Or will the bermuda and Durana compete about the same and I need to sow them at the same time. Maybe the Bermuda could get established a bit before the Durana got big enough to shade it out or slow it down. Probably the first summer that I plant the bermuda, I won't get a full stand like I see in the yard.
That is good that the bermuda isn't converting back to common bermuda. That could have come from many years ago before they got it more down to a science. Sometimes we repeat what Dad said 20 years ago and don't keep up with the new ways. I am glad to hear that it isn't so. Thanks for all your investigating MrBilly.

 

[Chuckie]

Sidney411, I talked to the John Deere man and he said that you can add a what they call a "small seed box" to your drill. I tried to look it up, but I am not coming up with the correct terminology to make it appear. If you have trouble locating one, I can get back with the JD man to find out where one can be purchased.