Drat

[boondocks]

Just got another set pregchecked today. Only 1 of 3 took on our AI last month. Daggone it! One of them we had thought was in heat a week ago (but wasn't sure if she was coming or going, so opted to wait until the preg check, rather than try to get her on natural heat). So we had figured one would be open. The other open one, though, had shown zero signs of heat. (We did not put patches on them; haven't had good luck keeping them on so far, so we just watched very closely. Or so we thought).

Weather was hot and stormy around days 18-22 post-AI, so maybe that suppressed heat?
I am just about to give up on moving our calving season up. We have been trying for 2-3 years now and getting nowhere.
Our conception rates aren't dismal (overall); our last AI (few weeks ago) we went 2 for 2. We just can't seem to get our average rate per synch much over 50% (maybe 60% in a really good year). Cows are healthy, good minerals, experienced technician, and we are using the 7 day co-synch with CIDR. Just can't figure out what we can do to goose our rates up; 75-80% would make a huge difference. (Bull not an option).
So, it's the end of August and we only have 3 of 7 mamas pregnant (not including two yearlings we are getting ready to AI). I think we will need to look further afield for a bull they can go visit next year. We are making good progress with the genetics but getting our calving season spread out too much.

 

[dun]

If you are bound and determined to use syncing, go a head and sync them then wait for the next natural heat after wards. Put patches on them at around day 14 following when you would have bred them on a sync heat. Unless you have a lot of low hanging branches/brush/types of stuff, you can improve the patch retention by brushing the place you are going to put the patches and warming the patch before you put it on or if you have long haired cows, clipping the patch area down to the hide. If you have low hanging stuff you can help retention by using the glue that the sale barns use to stick the patches on.

 

[angus9259]

This happens to more people than I can count. For some reason - people on this board are really really good at ai and have great hit rates but most of the world has things happen just like you said and they end up at my place frustrated and looking for a bull.

I think the summer heat plays a lot into cows showing heat, but I breed in November and use patches and use natural heats and STILL don't always see them come in heat.

Bottom line, for most people, a bull is a necessary evil to having pregnant cows.

Why is a bull out of the question?

 

[Ky hills]

Some years we had around 80-90% conception rates, but we were just giving 2 lutalyse shots and watching for heat, and breeding about 12 hours after an observed standing heat. Since we started doing timed AI the rates have dropped. This year, I just turned out bulls. I agree with the previous post, total AI may work for some, but for most a cleanup bull necessary
for most. For here, I like to do some AI at least with my purebreds to raise my own bulls, and then sell some of them after breeding, or they can be kept around until they start to cause problems, by then there is usually another young bull that I can turn out.

 

[bse]

Are you doing TAI or breeding on heat after sync? TAI will be less on conception. I patch everything after Lute breed after showing heat, then repatch 17 days later for repeats. I do put a bull in for 3rd cycle hope hes not needed but if so hes there. Is your tech willing to come out when needed? I do my own so no worries there.
The patches I can hardly pull them off, a lot of times I have to cut them like skinning an animal or use pliers and that's with no extra glue.

 

[boondocks]

This happens to more people than I can count. For some reason - people on this board are really really good at ai and have great hit rates but most of the world has things happen just like you said and they end up at my place frustrated and looking for a bull.

I think the summer heat plays a lot into cows showing heat, but I breed in November and use patches and use natural heats and STILL don't always see them come in heat.

Bottom line, for most people, a bull is a necessary evil to having pregnant cows.

Why is a bull out of the question?

Several reasons:
1.We have only been at this a few years and don't consider ourselves (or our fences) bull-ready.
2. Have tenants living on the property and don't want the worry.
3. For about a dozen mamas (tops), we don't think we can get a high-enough quality bull to justify the costs.

Dun et al, maybe we will give the patches another go (although it requires another trip thru the chute at day 14 or so).
Our tech will come out for one (usually), and we have (in the past) caught a one or two on natural heat after TAI.
We do TAI and breed about 56 hrs (give or take an hr) after the CIDR is removed. (We lute when the CIDR is removed and give GnRH at AI).

I know some of the cow protocols (as opposed to heifer protocols) for TAI (7 day CIDR co-synch) suggest a slightly longer number of hours prior to AI. Wonder if I should spread out the time between removal of CIDR and the insemination, to more like 60 hrs??? This gets far more difficult in terms of our and the tech's schedules though...

 

[nagwag]

Boon, Do you have other cows around your farm? A bull won't wander if there aren't other cows to investigate. Have you looked into renting a bull? I'm picking up a bull this weekend for my neighbor that he is renting for a couple of months.

 

[angus9259]

Why is a bull out of the question?

Several reasons:
1.We have only been at this a few years and don't consider ourselves (or our fences) bull-ready.
2. Have tenants living on the property and don't want the worry.
3. For about a dozen mamas (tops), we don't think we can get a high-enough quality bull to justify the costs.

Bulls aren't any harder on fences than cows as long as they are running with the cows - sometimes even if they aren't. A good bull is actually quite docile since it knows it doesn't have much to worry about.

There's nothing more to worry about with a good bull than a cow - assume you're worried about aggression?? A cow protecting her calf is a lot more aggressive than any bull I'd run.

I think you're underestimating the quality of bulls that are out there or over estimating the quality of using AI. You can't tell my herd bull calves from my AI calves out here. I just use AI to better manipulate the gene pool. And, even if you had a bad bull right now at least you'd have some calves coming out of those now open cows.

I think you may be laboring under some myths about bulls. There can be bad ones - just like with cows - but they aren't bad just because they are bulls.

 

[bse]

For me if I was gonna do TAI Id pull cidrs on heifers 8 hours later than cows, and breed 66 to 72 hrs after pulling the cows, from my experience your breeding to early. If your tech would come out twice I think youd see way better conception. If you pull cidrs say at 8am you will have a few come in at 48 to 54 and need breeding at say 6pm 2 days later then breed everything at 72, kinda a modified co-sync. That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee, but that's what works around here.

 

[boondocks]

For me if I was gonna do TAI Id pull cidrs on heifers 8 hours later than cows, and breed 66 to 72 hrs after pulling the cows, from my experience your breeding to early. If your tech would come out twice I think youd see way better conception. If you pull cidrs say at 8am you will have a few come in at 48 to 54 and need breeding at say 6pm 2 days later then breed everything at 72, kinda a modified co-sync. That and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee, but that's what works around here.

I'm considering, at least one time, as an experiment, just breeding everything twice: once earlier in the protocol range, and once later in the protocol range. The downside (other than increased labor, semen and tech fees) would be that our tech probably couldn't duplicate the semen for each cow/heifer, so we'd end up having to then DNA test for the sire.

Seems like with TAI, if you are really diligent you can maybe keep on the same calving schedule but moving it up is nigh impossible.

 

[bse]

breeding twice should increase conception, a couple of questions though. wouldn't it be the same to check heat and breed 2 times as needed, and why could he or she not duplicate the same semen? are you using something rare?

You have to be diligent with AI, I do believe not checking for and understanding heat is in most cases the problem( not saying you). you can move up calving seasons fairly easy being diligent in what your trying to accomplish, doing your own AI work would really help that because relying on someone else at the spur of the moment could get frustrating.

 

[dun]

We've been known to do the multiple AI deal. We alternated breeds. Red Angus or some other solid breed for some the first breeding, Hereford the second. Then for the second breeding flip the bull breed. For the baldy cows we just used the same semen both times.