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MikeC

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to convince me that small birthweight calves have no bearing on abnormal presentations.

Had an angus heifer last night that was close. Got her in the barn before dark. An hour later I came back, got her in the chute to check for irregularities and sure enough, both front feet were crossed and down low. After fighting to get the front feet in proper position, we pulled it with little effort but the calf would not breath. Evidentally I must have disturbed the umbilical cord while untangling the feet. The calf weighed 48 lbs. :roll:

Went back through my notes and calving records, and was recalling with neighbors this morning about the
"Ab" presentations in the past few years and ALL of the problems we encountered like this were very small calves and NO "Average" calves seemed to have this problem according to notes, memory, etc.

Give me an 85 - 95 pound live calf anyday!!!!!!
 
Very interesting. Makes sense.

Do you think it could go the other way, that maybe the abnormal presentation could have caused the low birthweight? Maybe the irregular position could have interfered with the fetus getting adequate nutrition?

Ryan
 
redcowsrule33":hohips6a said:
Did you check for a twin? I'd be nervous with that low a birthweight even out of a heifer.

No twin.

Very interesting. Makes sense.

Do you think it could go the other way, that maybe the abnormal presentation could have caused the low birthweight? Maybe the irregular position could have interfered with the fetus getting adequate nutrition?

Ryan
Very interesting. Makes sense.

Do you think it could go the other way, that maybe the abnormal presentation could have caused the low birthweight? Maybe the irregular position could have interfered with the fetus getting adequate nutrition?

Ryan

I guess it's plausible.........but not probable...............
 
70 lbs is about perfect. 100 lbs will work if the calf is not block shouldered.

Mike I hate you lost out on one that small. It just doesn't make sense does it?
 
backhoeboogie":1vcnmxt1 said:
70 lbs is about perfect. 100 lbs will work if the calf is not block shouldered.

Mike I hate you lost out on one that small. It just doesn't make sense does it?
and i could rest peacefully.... ive got some older momas that could handle the task but thats a little heavier than i care too venture anymore . as im tonein' down my brahman influence its also tightened up the pelvic size
 
backhoeboogie":l3w8btpz said:
70 lbs is about perfect. 100 lbs will work if the calf is not block shouldered.

Mike I hate you lost out on one that small. It just doesn't make sense does it?

Danged little angus calf was all legs. I had a heck of a time getting them in the proper position, even with a snare loop because she was pushing against me.
 
Sorry for you loss. I figure alot of this is going on that we do not hear about. We probably usually hear about how the big ones got stuck or train wrecks. I was always aware of this issue, but the majority of readers and authors here just didn't understand what my point was. They think smaller is better. More moderate is the answer I usually receive and then frame creep. "I would rather have a live calf than no calf", or someting to the effect. Then before we know it a 30 pound calf is turning like an cake frosting beater.
 
One advantage to a small calf is they usaully can be born no matter what kind of odd position they're in. We've had a few that small but I prefer something closer to 60-70 pounds
 
I have a 99 lber that decided to come out backwards???
That will tell you it isnt just the small ones!

Happened to be there and was able to pull the calf. All is well and momma wanted him. She retained though... But its all good.


KCF BENNETT 774 H119 was the bull. Just clicked the wrong way. Life happens!
 
I don't like little bitty calves. I don't pick little birth weight bulls.Do my best to raise cows that can have big calves. To many people use only the birth weight EPD, and want as small a birth weight as they can get, i think if you keep doing that you will wind up with cows that can only have little bitty calves.
 
Red Bull Breeder":1bi7vfxl said:
I don't like little bitty calves. I don't pick little birth weight bulls.Do my best to raise cows that can have big calves. To many people use only the birth weight EPD, and want as small a birth weight as they can get, i think if you keep doing that you will wind up with cows that can only have little bitty calves.

As I've said many times before, I challenge the cow to raise a big calf not birth a big calf. Over the years, other then one cow family which is now long gone, the smaller BW calves have weaned on par with the calves that were 15-20 lbs heavier at birth. Ours are cpable of having that 80 plus pound calf as a heifer, a couple have had 100 lbs calves as heifers without having to pull them, but what does that higher BW actually get you other then a possibility of more stress on the cow and calf.
 
A vet once told me that malpresenations are often because the calf is weak and unable to help itself get born. ( It takes a lot of effort for the calf to straighten its legs and extend them up into the birth canal etc.) This really made sense to me as statsically backwards calves are generally weaker and many die. I find the small calves, under 70 pounds to sometimes be lacking in vigor despite having an easy birth, and then they grow slowly from there. In contrast, I have also pulled some friggin big ones that were in correct position that despite the hard pull were very vigorous once mothered and they just took off from birth.
 
If you don't use it you lose it. If ever calf you have born is 50LB sooner or later you will have cows that can only have 50LB calves. I use bulls with good CED and CEM EPD"S to try and maintain calving ease cows. I just think that if you don't use what they can naturally do they naturally do less.
 
According to all of the research I have read, BW is significantly correlated to WW's.

If someone can find something contradictory, by a reasonably respected source, please put it forward.

One advantage to a small calf is they usaully can be born no matter what kind of odd position they're in.

I don't agree with this statement one bit.............. from personal experience.

I have rearranged too many small calves while they were in utero.

Once you go in to rearrange them, they must be pulled immediately for fear of damaging the umbilical cord.
 
MikeC":3sntync1 said:
One advantage to a small calf is they usaully can be born no matter what kind of odd position they're in.

I don't agree with this statement one bit.............. from personal experience.

That's what I based it on, personal experience.

When rearanging a calf, unless the cord is crimped or it's very late in the calving process and the calf should have been born much earlier, I've never had a problem with calves needing pulling quickly.
If a cow works at it for too many hours there is a likelyhood that the placenta will start to detach even before the calf is pulled.
 
dun":3v7x1a19 said:
MikeC":3v7x1a19 said:
One advantage to a small calf is they usaully can be born no matter what kind of odd position they're in.

I don't agree with this statement one bit.............. from personal experience.

That's what I based it on, personal experience.

When rearanging a calf, unless the cord is crimped or it's very late in the calving process and the calf should have been born much earlier, I've never had a problem with calves needing pulling quickly.
If a cow works at it for too many hours there is a likelyhood that the placenta will start to detach even before the calf is pulled.

When untangling legs, there is the chance of breaking/severing (damaging) the umbilical cord.

You have to move fast because you don't know whether you have damaged the cord or not.
 

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