Curly Claw Longevity

[angus9259]

Hi folks.

I've got a couple young cows with curly claw. Ironically, they are identical genetically, a year apart using great claw EPD animals. Go figure.

Anyhow - the cows have great calves I use for meat. Repeat - calves are used for meat. I hate the cost of retaining heifers from other cows to replace these two when the calves from these two are so good. My question is - does anyone have experience with what happens if you just keep a curly toe cow (remember, calves are for meat)? Any idea how long they can function before being humane steps in to make the decision for you? I've contacted some trimmers - I'm not really into trimming beef cows nor are they - they don't want to come for two cows - which I understand.

I know cull cows are good money right now (I don't sell cull cows, I donate meat to homeless shelters), I know the homeless need food right now too . But for total meat production purposes I"m wanting to keep using these young cows till it becomes just bad animal husbandry to do so. I'm just curious if anyone knows how long that is?

 

[farmerjan]

How long are the toes, how badly are they curled? Do you have a head chute? We have had a few over the years that get long toes that curl.... we get them in the head chute and you can take a pair of lopping shears .... the kind you use for trimming branches on shrubs... and cut the toes back some. Tie up the hoof so they can't put it on the ground... and trim it back a bit. Think like a hoof trimmer does for a horse, but the rope is holding it up in the air to make it easier to trim it than a person trying to hold up a cows hoof...

Had one cow that had one toe on one back foot that grew excessively long... we would just use the lopping shears on it, when she came in to be preg checked once a year. She got to where we could just open the side panel of the chute, and slide it under the long part of the toe and clip it while she was standing there.... our chute sits on dirt in the barn.

Not alot different than the idea of clipping long toe nails on any animal. So, a genetic defect is of no real importance if the calves are not used for breeding purposes... The animals walking on hard ground will help to keep it worn down more... but occasional trimming will allow them to be productive animals in your herd.

 

[Ebenezer]

What I have seen and had to do years ago was lopping off the tip every once in a while as needed with tree loppers. It does not go away over time.

 

[farmerjan]

What I have seen and had to do years ago was lopping off the tip every once in a while as needed with tree loppers. It does not go away over time.

nice to see we weren't the only ones using the tree loppers....

 

[Silver]

Usually you will find that the hoof wall has curled around under the foot so they are walking on it. This causes pain and often they can get infection in there. I would tie the foot up and trim the bottom of the foot up with a pair of nippers and a rasp until it looks like a proper foot again. Knocking the tip off looks aesthetically better but doesn’t do much for the function of the hoof.

 

[Ebenezer]

nice to see we weren't the only ones using the tree loppers....

Don't know if you ever bought a set of hoof trimmers from a cattle supply place but they expect King Kong to be employed by you when you use them. The tree loppers are for lazy guys (who used to be younger when we used them). Now: cull the whole cow, sell the kin and throw out the semen. Funny thing is that bad hooves are so big in the Angus world. No wonder: one of the most recent highest used bulls that has a clone can wreck a hoof in a heartbeat. Why would you do that to folks? The breed will never get all of that out of it. Just the folks who avoid it have a chance.

 

[BFE]

I've had this problem recently, it hurts to sell an otherwise good animal. Just like horses, start at the ground and go up when judging their worth.

Myself, I would cull sooner rather than later.

 

[TCRanch]

Don't know if you ever bought a set of hoof trimmers from a cattle supply place but they expect King Kong to be employed by you when you use them. The tree loppers are for lazy guys (who used to be younger when we used them). Now: cull the whole cow, sell the kin and throw out the semen. Funny thing is that bad hooves are so big in the Angus world. No wonder: one of the most recent highest used bulls that has a clone can wreck a hoof in a heartbeat. Why would you do that to folks? The breed will never get all of that out of it. Just the folks who avoid it have a chance.

This! I bought the hoof trimmers and attempted to use them once. I'm pretty scrappy but was no match for them. Went back to the workshop, grabbed the loppers, one 'n done. And I have since culled that lineage, so my expensive trimmers are just sitting there, gathering dust.

 

[Travlr]

Hi folks.

I've got a couple young cows with curly claw. Ironically, they are identical genetically, a year apart using great claw EPD animals. Go figure.

Anyhow - the cows have great calves I use for meat. Repeat - calves are used for meat. I hate the cost of retaining heifers from other cows to replace these two when the calves from these two are so good. My question is - does anyone have experience with what happens if you just keep a curly toe cow (remember, calves are for meat)? Any idea how long they can function before being humane steps in to make the decision for you? I've contacted some trimmers - I'm not really into trimming beef cows nor are they - they don't want to come for two cows - which I understand.

I know cull cows are good money right now (I don't sell cull cows, I donate meat to homeless shelters), I know the homeless need food right now too . But for total meat production purposes I"m wanting to keep using these young cows till it becomes just bad animal husbandry to do so. I'm just curious if anyone knows how long that is?

Any detrimental anomaly that can be passed genetically gets culled automatically. No ifs, ands, or buts...

And I'd make sure they went to slaughter. I've never seen a cow that can't be replaced with something better.

 

[wbvs58]

I get the occaisional heifer/ young cow here that get badly deformed feet, I usually notice it at calving. It seems to be pregnant heifers in good condition after a good summer. There are obviously some laminitic changes in the hoof. Once they get into lactation their metabolism seems to be more in balance and by calving time the next year all the deformed hoof has grown out and shed and they have great feet. The worse I have had was when I was grazing them on some forage cereals over winter but will get the odd one just on the summer grasses. I don't know what it is but my daughter has a lot of trouble with a pony laminitis grazing the summer pastures here, too much sugars in the grasses so he is locked up during the day but let out to graze at night, apparently the sugar levels drop dramatically once the sun goes down. She has done a lot of research on it. I have another one this year that I noticed the deformed feet on when she calved twins, the twins will pull her back a bit and I can guarantee her feet will be back to normal at calving next year.

Ken

 

[angus9259]

I get the occaisional heifer/ young cow here that get badly deformed feet, I usually notice it at calving. It seems to be pregnant heifers in good condition after a good summer. There are obviously some laminitic changes in the hoof. Once they get into lactation their metabolism seems to be more in balance and by calving time the next year all the deformed hoof has grown out and shed and they have great feet. The worse I have had was when I was grazing them on some forage cereals over winter but will get the odd one just on the summer grasses. I don't know what it is but my daughter has a lot of trouble with a pony laminitis grazing the summer pastures here, too much sugars in the grasses so he is locked up during the day but let out to graze at night, apparently the sugar levels drop dramatically once the sun goes down. She has done a lot of research on it. I have another one this year that I noticed the deformed feet on when she calved twins, the twins will pull her back a bit and I can guarantee her feet will be back to normal at calving next year.

Ken

Thanks. This is helpful feedback.

I fall calve so these two animals were heavy borderline fat for their first calf. Only on weedy grass pasture without feed or supplements. They were just really easy doers.

Also appreciate the ideas on trimming. Probably not for me.

I think I will decline the opportunity to take responsibility for all that's wrong with the Angus breed however - me and my dozen cows making calves for meat .

 

[farmerjan]

If you trim small trees and shrubs, using a pair of lopping shears is simple in a head catch/chute... I'm 70 now... and still do it without any big deal... It doesn't "hurt" like cutting your toenails... and makes it easier for them to walk comfortably.

 

[angus9259]

If you trim small trees and shrubs, using a pair of lopping shears is simple in a head catch/chute... I'm 70 now... and still do it without any big deal... It doesn't "hurt" like cutting your toenails... and makes it easier for them to walk comfortably.

Ok. I'll give it a shot when they are up for preg checking. With trimming I'm more concerned about what was described as trimming underneath the hoof to get at more of the root of the issue where infection could set it. I have hoof nippers - is there a chance of cutting into any "quick" in that process?

But, with "work" mounting, and especially any increased opportunity for infection and the costs associated with that, I may just move on. The toes themselves don't seem terribly curled. Maybe a tip about the size of my thumb. But, again, any onset of infection will quickly eat away any savings from not retaining a heier.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

The 'curl' can also happen after the animal had an injury to that claw. Had a bull with it this summer. No curls before, hoof curled after he was severe lame due to an infection on that foot.
Just cutting the curl tip off is not going to do anything, other then you not seeing a curl anymore. You could ask your vet if he trims feet, or has someone that does them if you feel uncomfortable trying to do it. All you would need is a chute, some rope to lift and tie the foot and some sharp nippers, maybe a rasp. If your ground is dry you will have a good work out cutting very hard feet.
I would do it, who knows, maybe just a one time occurrence and if you like their calves....... why not put in that little bit of work. That's just my 5 cents, others would cull regardless.

 

[JJColvin]

Hi folks.

I've got a couple young cows with curly claw. Ironically, they are identical genetically, a year apart using great claw EPD animals. Go figure.

Anyhow - the cows have great calves I use for meat. Repeat - calves are used for meat. I hate the cost of retaining heifers from other cows to replace these two when the calves from these two are so good. My question is - does anyone have experience with what happens if you just keep a curly toe cow (remember, calves are for meat)? Any idea how long they can function before being humane steps in to make the decision for you? I've contacted some trimmers - I'm not really into trimming beef cows nor are they - they don't want to come for two cows - which I understand.

I know cull cows are good money right now (I don't sell cull cows, I donate meat to homeless shelters), I know the homeless need food right now too . But for total meat production purposes I"m wanting to keep using these young cows till it becomes just bad animal husbandry to do so. I'm just curious if anyone knows how long that is?

Curly toe is a genetic trait. Cull is the only way to rid of it. You can put them on a squeeze chute and clip them if you see it becoming a problem. Do your own research but I found out and looked into it ten years ago when I bought some heifers and the toes curled on one of them. Her calves all were born with it. Never got to be a problem. I should have probably stopped at the first sentence.

 

[angus9259]

The 'curl' can also happen after the animal had an injury to that claw. Had a bull with it this summer. No curls before, hoof curled after he was severe lame due to an infection on that foot.
Just cutting the curl tip off is not going to do anything, other then you not seeing a curl anymore. You could ask your vet if he trims feet, or has someone that does them if you feel uncomfortable trying to do it. All you would need is a chute, some rope to lift and tie the foot and some sharp nippers, maybe a rasp. If your ground is dry you will have a good work out cutting very hard feet.
I would do it, who knows, maybe just a one time occurrence and if you like their calves....... why not put in that little bit of work. That's just my 5 cents, others would cull regardless.

I'll give it a shot. Sounds like fun . My vet doesn't do them. She recommended a trimmer. He's not too interested in two beef cows. My dairy friend recommended a trimmer he passed but gave me the name of another guy. Who also passed.

I get the "cull regardless" mindset. Normally that's mine as well. But with the price I'm getting on weaned calves right now - including heifers - I can't justify keeping one when I have an otherwise perfectly good beef producer sitting right there already paid for....

But, I'm not a purist. I'm a pragmatist.

 

[angus9259]

Curly toe is a genetic trait. Cull is the only way to rid of it. You can put them on a squeeze chute and clip them if you see it becoming a problem. Do your own research but I found out and looked into it ten years ago when I bought some heifers and the toes curled on one of them. Her calves all were born with it. Never got to be a problem. I should have probably stopped at the first sentence.

Just to save everyone some keyboard time - I know curly toe is a genetic trait. I know that there's a great likelihood it will be passed to her offspring (who will be in the freezer please remember as I originally posted). I know that culling is the "only way out of it". I know all these things so further posts are not needed to remind me of them. I'm not taking a poll of who would just cull regardless compared to who wouldn't.
My question was simply this - has anyone kept one going for beef production. I have now emphasized this word to remind people what my original post said - I'm not selling this for genetics or retaining animals or trying to secretly infiltrate the angus breed with inferior genetics. I'm putting beef in freezers and trying to avoid retaining a heifer at this time.

Whew!!

 

[Travlr]

I'll give it a shot. Sounds like fun . My vet doesn't do them. She recommended a trimmer. He's not too interested in two beef cows. My dairy friend recommended a trimmer he passed but gave me the name of another guy. Who also passed.

I get the "cull regardless" mindset. Normally that's mine as well. But with the price I'm getting on weaned calves right now - including heifers - I can't justify keeping one when I have an otherwise perfectly good beef producer sitting right there already paid for....

But, I'm not a purist. I'm a pragmatist.

Well if you would go to your profile and put a location in I might be interested in coming over and helping. Hard to know if that or any other advice you might want is worth the post if we don't know where you are.

As to your beef production question... I think several people here have expressed their opinion that they would cull rather than keep, and ... whew... that's also advice whether you want to see it that way or not.

 

[farmerjan]

My suggestion still stands... if they are producing good beef, then just nipping off the longest part so they walk a little better when they are in for preg check would take just a little extra time... since it is only the 2, should not be a problem. I did not cull that one cow that had the long toe, cut it back every year at preg check...it would maybe get about 6 inches longer than the other toe in a year... she was a smokey... ang/char cross... produced nice calves, mostly all steers, and she stayed until she came up open....
If it is not that long, you will probably not cut back to where it would bleed... it will not kill her if you do cut it a little short... so a once a year cut back to the same length of the other toe... don't get all panicky about trimming the bottom...
Or just benign neglect until she can't barely walk....

 

[simme]

Any idea how long they can function before being humane steps in to make the decision for you?

But for total meat production purposes I"m wanting to keep using these young cows till it becomes just bad animal husbandry to do so. I'm just curious if anyone knows how long that is?

I don't think there is a textbook answer to that question. Depends on the cow's and owner's tolerance for the look and effects of the condition as well as how fast the claw grows and the angle of the growth. As one claw overlaps the other, getting around becomes an issue.

But, I will throw out an age of 4 to 6 years.