Culling Cows

[randiliana]

If you own cows you have cull cows. Your culls may be better (or worse) than someone else's but they are still culls, at least to you. It is a fact of raising cattle. We run a reasonably strict culling regime here. Here are the main things we cull on. Anyone have anything else to add??

The # 1 thing we cull for is Reproduction. If she doesn't get bred, she doesn't stay. We have a 60 day breeding season, and we have sent some awfully nice cattle to town because of it. But as I said, if she can't get bred on time then it is time for her to go. Some reasons for the short breeding season are, reduced chance of disease (yes we vaccinate too). Shorter calving season, we only have to worry about them for a couple months. More uniform calf crop, size wise, which makes for nicer groups when sale time comes. Less chance of heifer calves getting bred, still happens, but not very often.

# 2 is Milk, as in having enough to get the calf to weaning age. If she has no milk she has no home.

#3 is Temprament. Wild cows, cows that are overprotective at calving, fence crawlers and stuff like that. Much less chance of me (or anyone else) getting hurt when we cull on this. Also, the cows are a LOT easier on the facilities when they are quiet, and the neighbours like you a lot more if YOUR cows stay where they are supposed to.

#4 is Production. Most cows get 2 chances here, especially if it is an animal that was purchased bred. Heifers also usually get a second chance. But, again there are restrictions. We expect a cow to wean off at least a 500lb calf and a heifer to wean over 400 lbs. Over the years of keeping records, we have found that if a heifer can't raise a 400 lb (or better) calf the odds are very slim that she will ever make a productive cow. As for the cows, that 500 is the bare minimum, and if she is normally only pulling in a 500 lber than chances are she will go to town.

#5 is Birth Weight . I am not really concerned with BW. As far as I am concerned, if the cow had it on her own, what is to worry about?? However, if she consistently has high BW and we have to help her out, well that is another story.

Low BW concerns me more than high BW. Low BW is often an indication of lower growth, but unless the cow has proven that she has low BW/low growth calves it isn't something I really look at. The times we do look at low BW are when a cow (usually older) that normally has good sized calves suddenly has a tiny one. I find that to be a good indicator that the cow has probably run out of productivity. The other time is when we pull a low BW calf out of a heifer. I don't have a problem assisting a heifer as long as she raises a good calf. What I do have a problem with is pulling small calves out of heifers. There is a really good chance that she won't be much different next year.

#6 is Other, as in udder, feet, conformation, body condition, and so on. These are definitely reasons to cull. BUT, I can put up with a cow that has any of those problems, as long as she is still raising a good calf and breeding back on time, and not requiring me to do a lot of extra work. I don't really care what her udder looks like, as long as it isn't dragging on the ground and the calf can suck it on its own. Feet don't matter too much unless they are to the point that she can't get around easily, same goes for conformation. Body condition, as long as she is milking, raising a good calf, and breeding back that is all that matters. I find that usually the thinner cows cull themselves by coming up open sooner, rather than later.

#7 is Age. Age is again another one that we don't really worry about. Most of the above reasons will cull out the older cows that are finished in the herd. If she makes it past all the other requirements odds are she will raise you another good calf. Besides, if she is that old and she dies on you, she has probably made some money in her lifetime ;-)

 

[Beefy]

about #6, i tend to agree however it definitely affects which heifers i retain.

 

[randiliana]

about #6, i tend to agree however it definitely affects which heifers i retain.

Shoot, I actually meant to mention that

 

[Aaron]

#6 is the most important for us. Cows have to work for us. If you have to mess around with bags and such, all the other things listed don't mean anything if you have to shove a cow into the chute to help the calf get a hold of balloon tits or try to treat a cow that has too much milk and has mastitis.

The minute a cow has to go into the chute, our criticism of her is right behind and follows her right out the chute.

On the list right now, is one cow with a pulled stifle, one old one that is having vaginal prolapses, one with two quarters finished and another which is questionable. I culled two this spring, one for poor fertility and another for just being a troublemaker when being herded....wasn't a fence jumper...just one that looked left when she should have looked right. There might be a few others as the year goes on, but for the most part, our herd is pretty finely tuned.

I laugh when people talk about cows/heifers with no milk. We haven't had that problem in 10 years and I don't understand how, in this day and age, it should happen. With things like milk EPD's and just general herd management (ie recognizing your valuable cow families), there is no reason for it. FYI, in our herd of 50 cows, 3/4 of the cows can be traced back to 3 specific cows...yes..3 single cows: 37X, 10E and 15E.

Pick your best 3 cows out of your herd, and use their example to critique the rest. Trust me, a lot of cows start leaving on the truck pretty quick.

 

[Beefy]

most of mine trace back to a handful of cows too.

 

[KNERSIE]

#6 is Other, as in udder, feet, conformation, body condition, and so on. These are definitely reasons to cull. BUT, I can put up with a cow that has any of those problems, as long as she is still raising a good calf and breeding back on time, and not requiring me to do a lot of extra work. I don't really care what her udder looks like, as long as it isn't dragging on the ground and the calf can suck it on its own. Feet don't matter too much unless they are to the point that she can't get around easily, same goes for conformation. Body condition, as long as she is milking, raising a good calf, and breeding back that is all that matters. I find that usually the thinner cows cull themselves by coming up open sooner, rather than later.

In principle I agree, I will also tolerate faults in the commercial herd as long as it doesn't affect production or reproduction. When it comes to udders and feet I am more strict, if it looks like a problem this year, it will be a problem next year.

Where I disagree is with constitution, under my conditions cows without the ability to stay in condition will probably be shown out a year before they will be shown out under your conditions. I know its a matter of time before they will end up open, so I'll rather cull them before they show up open. Under harsher conditions with lower quality forage all body functions are closely related to how well a cow can stay in condition, if she loses too much weight when conditions are tough, which is usually the 2 months before the calving season, she'll likely have a poor calf or not milk well. She will likely cycle later, calf later or be open. A poor condition cow are more likely to be sickly, etc. Staying fat because of laziness won't be tolerated either, though.

My priority list for the reg. herd is as follows.
1. reproduction (open cows are culled, no second chances)
2. constitution
3. faults and phenotype (its no point breeding heavy calves that will be sold commercially because of faults. Being proned to pink eye, etc included here)
4. production
5. other in herd goals
6. other factors like being difficult to AI, hard on fences, etc.

For the commercial cattle
1. reproduction
2. constitution
3. production
4. easy keeping.

I don't cull for age as the production will usually show you when its time to cull.

 

[dun]

I look at the culling priority just a bit different. First is disposition, second is feet and legs. But disposition is pretty much a given, without that trait nothing else matters. Feet and legs are the first and formost reason to get rid of a cow, or to not buy her in the first place.
But realistically they are all equally important. Without any one of the cullling factors being acceptable they head down the road, or don;t get here in the first place.

dun

 

[bigbull338]

I look at the culling priority just a bit different. First is disposition, second is feet and legs. But disposition is pretty much a given, without that trait nothing else matters. Feet and legs are the first and formost reason to get rid of a cow, or to not buy her in the first place.
But realistically they are all equally important. Without any one of the cullling factors being acceptable they head down the road, or don;t get here in the first place.

dun

your right the older an slower you get you look at disposition 1st.i wont have a bad tempered or crazy cow.because i just cant move like i used to.the cows i have now i can take the 4 wheeler out there an walk round them no prob.the dang dog is finally learning whose boss as well.i do 1 thing most people dont do around their cows though.i talk very loud so they get used to my voice an the noise i make.dont want them to get startled an turn stupid.because when that happens you can get hurt.

 

[randiliana]

I laugh when people talk about cows/heifers with no milk. We haven't had that problem in 10 years and I don't understand how, in this day and age, it should happen. With things like milk EPD's and just general herd management (ie recognizing your valuable cow families), there is no reason for it. FYI, in our herd of 50 cows, 3/4 of the cows can be traced back to 3 specific cows...yes..3 single cows: 37X, 10E and 15E.
.

Well, don't laugh too much. Just because you have EPD's or production records (of her dams) doesn't necessarily mean she will milk. We ran into that this spring with a heifer we bought. The guy we bought her from wanted to buy her calf back this fall, so to me this means he was pretty sure that the heifer would be able to raise the calf. Well, the heifer had no milk. When we talked to him he was quite surprised. Needless to say, he isn't interested in the calf anymore.

Another one was out of our son's old cow. She is 13 now, and about 5 years ago we kept a heifer out of her. I guess the heifer had some milk, but not one of her calves ever weaned off over 400 lbs. So she obviously didn't have much milk.

 

[mnmtranching]

Where my herd is at right now, the #1 reason for culling is age.
I look over the older cows closely for signs of going down hill, any sort of problem that could worsen by next calving. 8%

I did heavy culling for disposition 10-15 years ago, not much of a problem now. I've also been very sure the bulls I buy have good dispositions and calving ease. 2%

Cows that get about 1 month per year later with rebreeding, if they don't turn it around by about their 3rd or 4th calve, they go after their last calf is weaned. 3%

Open cows, for whatever reason didn't breed back. 2%

Cows I don't like. Poor calf, poor udder, signs of a health problem, gave me a problem while loading into trailer. looks at me funny ;-)
And many other reasons. :shock: 3%

That comes to about 18 % of the cow herd yearly.

I save 25-30 heifers to keep my herd numbers about steady.
It does seem like each year it gets a little harder or I have to cut closer for culls. And a quite a few of my culls end up going back to the country.

 

[Caustic Burno]

If you own cows you have cull cows. Your culls may be better (or worse) than someone else's but they are still culls, at least to you. It is a fact of raising cattle. We run a reasonably strict culling regime here. Here are the main things we cull on. Anyone have anything else to add??

The # 1 thing we cull for is Reproduction. If she doesn't get bred, she doesn't stay. We have a 60 day breeding season, and we have sent some awfully nice cattle to town because of it. But as I said, if she can't get bred on time then it is time for her to go. Some reasons for the short breeding season are, reduced chance of disease (yes we vaccinate too). Shorter calving season, we only have to worry about them for a couple months. More uniform calf crop, size wise, which makes for nicer groups when sale time comes. Less chance of heifer calves getting bred, still happens, but not very often.

# 2 is Milk, as in having enough to get the calf to weaning age. If she has no milk she has no home.

#3 is Temprament. Wild cows, cows that are overprotective at calving, fence crawlers and stuff like that. Much less chance of me (or anyone else) getting hurt when we cull on this. Also, the cows are a LOT easier on the facilities when they are quiet, and the neighbours like you a lot more if YOUR cows stay where they are supposed to.

#4 is Production. Most cows get 2 chances here, especially if it is an animal that was purchased bred. Heifers also usually get a second chance. But, again there are restrictions. We expect a cow to wean off at least a 500lb calf and a heifer to wean over 400 lbs. Over the years of keeping records, we have found that if a heifer can't raise a 400 lb (or better) calf the odds are very slim that she will ever make a productive cow. As for the cows, that 500 is the bare minimum, and if she is normally only pulling in a 500 lber than chances are she will go to town.

#5 is Birth Weight . I am not really concerned with BW. As far as I am concerned, if the cow had it on her own, what is to worry about?? However, if she consistently has high BW and we have to help her out, well that is another story.

Low BW concerns me more than high BW. Low BW is often an indication of lower growth, but unless the cow has proven that she has low BW/low growth calves it isn't something I really look at. The times we do look at low BW are when a cow (usually older) that normally has good sized calves suddenly has a tiny one. I find that to be a good indicator that the cow has probably run out of productivity. The other time is when we pull a low BW calf out of a heifer. I don't have a problem assisting a heifer as long as she raises a good calf. What I do have a problem with is pulling small calves out of heifers. There is a really good chance that she won't be much different next year.

#6 is Other, as in udder, feet, conformation, body condition, and so on. These are definitely reasons to cull. BUT, I can put up with a cow that has any of those problems, as long as she is still raising a good calf and breeding back on time, and not requiring me to do a lot of extra work. I don't really care what her udder looks like, as long as it isn't dragging on the ground and the calf can suck it on its own. Feet don't matter too much unless they are to the point that she can't get around easily, same goes for conformation. Body condition, as long as she is milking, raising a good calf, and breeding back that is all that matters. I find that usually the thinner cows cull themselves by coming up open sooner, rather than later.

#7 is Age. Age is again another one that we don't really worry about. Most of the above reasons will cull out the older cows that are finished in the herd. If she makes it past all the other requirements odds are she will raise you another good calf. Besides, if she is that old and she dies on you, she has probably made some money in her lifetime ;-)

All good suggestions Culling is about management and keeping good records. If you don't keep good records other than the obvious problem then your guessing.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

management and keeping good records. If you don't keep good records

Why is it that there are so many people who do not or will not keep records? Once a person has a good record-keeping system in place, one that suits their situation, it really isn't all that difficult to do, nor too time consuming.

The time spent keeping good records is less than the time spent hanging on to animals that should be culled while trying to figure out, without one's records, where/what the problem is.

Katherine

 

[dun]

Why is it that there are so many people who do not or will not keep records?

My wife asked the same rhetorical question yesterday. I can usually thnk up some wild idea that could rationalize anything. I couldn;t think of any what to rationalize that question

dun

 

[tom4018]

#4 is Production. Most cows get 2 chances here, especially if it is an animal that was purchased bred. Heifers also usually get a second chance. But, again there are restrictions. We expect a cow to wean off at least a 500lb calf and a heifer to wean over 400 lbs. Over the years of keeping records, we have found that if a heifer can't raise a 400 lb (or better) calf the odds are very slim that she will ever make a productive cow. As for the cows, that 500 is the bare minimum, and if she is normally only pulling in a 500 lber than chances are she will go to town.

What age are you weaning at? Or just using a 205 day average?

 

[msscamp]

management and keeping good records. If you don't keep good records

Why is it that there are so many people who do not or will not keep records?

Katherine

Why do so many people spend major bucks to plant their fields to alfalfa, then not control the Canadian Thistle, Milkweed, Foxtail, Mustard, and other weeds? Laziness, lack of commitment, inexperience, aren't willing to learn, ineptitude, the list of possible reasons goes on and on.

 

[Jogeephus]

management and keeping good records. If you don't keep good records

Why is it that there are so many people who do not or will not keep records? Once a person has a good record-keeping system in place, one that suits their situation, it really isn't all that difficult to do, nor too time consuming.

The time spent keeping good records is less than the time spent hanging on to animals that should be culled while trying to figure out, without one's records, where/what the problem is.

Katherine

Excellent point. I have a $90 program purchased from extension service. I much prefer to go down the printout and manage by numbers. Its quick, simple and keeps my subjectivity out of it. With good numbers, almost anyone can make good management decisions.

Its also handy in figuring out how much Daisy is costing you. ;-) :lol:

 

[Workinonit Farm]

The time spent keeping good records is less than the time spent hanging on to animals that should be culled while trying to figure out, without one's records, where/what the problem is.

Katherine

Excellent point. I have a $90 program purchased from extension service. I much prefer to go down the printout and manage by numbers. Its quick, simple and keeps my subjectivity out of it. With good numbers, almost anyone can make good management decisions.

Its also handy in figuring out how much Daisy is costing you. ;-) :lol:

The program they use where I work is CattlePro. Great program. The few cows I have bought from work, and calves that I have come home with all have come with a print-out for each animal, very helpful.

Even if a person doesn't want to spend the money on a computer program, its not that difficult to keep records with pencil and paper. At the very least, basic records and numbers can be very beneficial.

BTW, Daisey has paid for herself several times over. :lol:

Katherine

 

[Jogeephus]

What I would really like to see is a program that can be synchronized with a palm pilot. This way, I could collect the data from the truck and then it could automatically be transferred to the desktop. Right now, mine goes in a notebook and sometimes makes it to the desktop - depending on my degree of laziness. :lol:

 

[Sir Loin]

Workinonit Farm wrote:

Why is it that there are so many people who do not or will not keep records?

The short answer is this:
1. There is simply not enough time to micro-manage a herd of over 500 or a 1,000 animals.
2. Not all operations or a segment of an operation requires all that data to reach their goal.
3. Not all operations are set up to collect the data needed to micro-manage a herd.

Most operation that I know only collect that data needed to reach their end goal. In short the cost would out weigh the rewards.

For example, an operation that only buys the cheapest calves he can find for feeders, pastures them on clear cut woodland and then sells them has no need for any records except Purchase price and sale price.

SL

 

[randiliana]

What age are you weaning at? Or just using a 205 day average?

We wean at 6-7 months of age. I actually figure out the ADG on the calves and then figure out what their 205 day wt would be and use that. That way everyone is on a level playing field. Of course, production also ties into calving interval which ties into late calving so there are times that a higher producing but later calving cow will be culled over a lower producing earlier calving cow just because of the extra 40-60 days the lower producers calf had to grow. After all we are in the business to raise pounds and if she calves late then she has to really produce to make up the difference in time.