Creek Is An IE Carrier

[Herefords.US]

Here's one that sure surprised me - CSF 122L Creek 203R ET is now listed as IEC, as well as his highly touted donor dam, RB L1 Dominette 8063.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...5D5C255A20272F21&9=535F&11=5D5F5A&12=4342415F

Creek was a bull that I had considered using at some point, so this is really disappointing to me. We had spent some time discussing Creek here at CT. I had bid on a full brother in Star Lake's sale last year, but he sold for a good bit more than I was willing to pay.

The 8063 cow has had 74 registered calves and it looks like only a handful of them have been tested. At least the Wallace bull (BR DM CSF WALLACE ET) tested IEF.

George

 

[Baldie Maker]

that is a shame as he is a 122 son that i actually care for... as you said though happy i know now before i ever invested in semen.

 

[Oldtimer]

I haven't followed the Hereford world that close for several years- and wasn't that familiar with IE being any kind of problem- until a couple of weeks ago when I had the chance to spend a couple hours visiting with a local Hereford breeder... He was telling me that there are several Hereford herds where the defect runs pretty deep- and I think he said one Montana breeder had even cancelled their regular sale....

 

[Herefords.US]

This just confirms what I've been saying.

Most of the "straight" Line 1 breeders have a very good handle on the IE problem and know right where they stand in their herds. And if you ask them, they can tell you. Many have already completely purged any carrier cattle from their herds.

It's these cattle where Line 1 IE carrier cattle have been crossed with other bloodlines that the problem is going to continue manifesting itself. A number of breeders have some carrier cattle and are unaware of it- unaware that they could even possibly be a carrier. It's amazing to me that this came to light at this late date. I had mistakenly assumed that these particular high-profile cattle had been tested very early on - and were IE free. Shame on me! And I'm sure glad I don't already have semen - or bought a bull that could have possibly been an IEC. I remember this morning that I also seriously looked at buying an 8063 son by Remitall Keynote 20X. I've been very fortunate in dodging buying a number of IEC cattle in the last few years.

George

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

So, are you saying, in the Hereford breed, they can sell semen on bulls that have NOT been tested for a defect known to the breed?
Hmmm - I have to think about that. I guess in the Simm breed, all bulls have to be DNA tested, but not necessarily for defects unless there is possible genetics making them a suspect animal. I "think" that's how it is. Does the Hereford Assn web site let you look up any animal and codes them as to whether they have suspect pedigrees?
If we have a yellow coded (suspect) cow, her offspring has to be tested before you can register them (or test her). Thank goodness, my cattle have been purebred for many generations (except 1) and none had any type of pedigree suspect.

 

[Aero]

semen can be sold on any animal - carrier or not.

 

[Herefords.US]

So, are you saying, in the Hereford breed, they can sell semen on bulls that have NOT been tested for a defect known to the breed?
Hmmm - I have to think about that. I guess in the Simm breed, all bulls have to be DNA tested, but not necessarily for defects unless there is possible genetics making them a suspect animal. I "think" that's how it is. Does the Hereford Assn web site let you look up any animal and codes them as to whether they have suspect pedigrees?
If we have a yellow coded (suspect) cow, her offspring has to be tested before you can register them (or test her). Thank goodness, my cattle have been purebred for many generations (except 1) and none had any type of pedigree suspect.

All Hereford bulls have to be DNA tested and parentage verified to sell semen certificates and register the calves (a non-owner), but the check for IE, HY, and DL are all relatively new tests and have only become part of the regimen recently. Any bull DNA tested prior to that wouldn't have had those tests run - or if they were run, it was left up to the owners whether that information would appear when looking them up on the AHA web-site. The bull where the IE mutation manifested still doesn't have the IEC designation - and it's possible that he may never have that designation.

And, as aero said, semen can still be sold on carriers. But I'm sure the market is almost non-existent.

George

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

So is it strickly left up to you as a breeder to do your own research on pedigrees to determine if your animal or a bull you are considering using MIGHT be a carrier??? That's tough!! makes for a lot of research. Known carriers can go back a long way horizontally in a pedigree.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

I agree. The AHA is not doing right on this thing. Any animal with a "suspect" pedigree should be required to be tested before any registration certificate is released.

 

[Herefords.US]

So is it strickly left up to you as a breeder to do your own research on pedigrees to determine if your animal or a bull you are considering using MIGHT be a carrier??? That's tough!! makes for a lot of research. Known carriers can go back a long way horizontally in a pedigree.

Exactly!

I've got a half dozen cows that I need to get tested before selling their offspring as breeding stock. I intend to do that this year.

George

 

[Oldtimer]

So, are you saying, in the Hereford breed, they can sell semen on bulls that have NOT been tested for a defect known to the breed?

Not surprising- when you look at how the angus association and the other associations that were developed using black angus blood to make them black have reacted to this Fawn Calf syndrome...
It appears it was swept under the rug for years in the US -and now the US associations will not identify any carriers- even tho the Australians have identified carriers for several years- including one of the leading carriers as Bando 598...
BUT pick up any semen pimp catalog- or look at the catalogs of some of the top new new bulls some "breeders(?) are promoting- and you see more 598 sons- or cattle with 598 in their lines being stuck out there- trying to reap the profitteering rewards before the test can be developed- and the possibility of their gambling investments lost....But in doing so possibly speeding up the spread of the defect.... :???: Profiteering at all costs taking priority of breeding ethics :???:

 

[Aero]

the solution is simple.

all they have to do is require potential bull carriers to be tested clean before registration and let carrier cows be registered. the problem takes care of itself, adds to the value of registered bulls and doesnt crucify the unlucky breeder who has 25% of his cow herd as potential carriers.

 

[alexfarms]

So is it strickly left up to you as a breeder to do your own research on pedigrees to determine if your animal or a bull you are considering using MIGHT be a carrier??? That's tough!! makes for a lot of research. Known carriers can go back a long way horizontally in a pedigree.

It will always be buyer beware because there are plenty of genetic abnormalities out there that aren't being tested for.

 

[Herefords.US]

......and doesnt crucify the unlucky breeder....

If it was me that had spent the $8000 (if I remember correctly) on Creek ...or the $10, 000, $20,000, or $30,000 that his 3 full brothers sold for in the Star Lake sale in 2008 , and they subsequently tested to be IE carriers, I'd sure be ready to nail SOMEONE to the cross right now!

And I'd be PLENTY sore from the effort of repeatedly trying to kick myself in the butt for being so dumb that I had assumed that they would have tested 8063 long ago and would reveal the results if she was proven IEC.

This is a wake-up call for me to be extra careful - and not assume anything!

George

 

[Aero]

......and doesnt crucify the unlucky breeder....

If it was me that had spent the $8000 (if I remember correctly) on Creek ...or the $10, 000, $20,000, or $30,000 that his 3 full brothers sold for in the Star Lake sale in 2008 , and they subsequently tested to be IE carriers, I'd sure be ready to nail SOMEONE to the cross right now!

are you saying the seller knew they were carriers?

 

[Herefords.US]

are you saying the seller knew they were carriers?

No, I'm not saying that they DID know! But I'll sure say they SHOULD have known!

George

 

[alexfarms]

......and doesnt crucify the unlucky breeder....

If it was me that had spent the $8000 (if I remember correctly) on Creek ...or the $10, 000, $20,000, or $30,000 that his 3 full brothers sold for in the Star Lake sale in 2008 , and they subsequently tested to be IE carriers, I'd sure be ready to nail SOMEONE to the cross right now!

And I'd be PLENTY sore from the effort of repeatedly trying to kick myself in the butt for being so dumb that I had assumed that they would have tested 8063 long ago and would reveal the results if she was proven IEC.

This is a wake-up call for me to be extra careful - and not assume anything!

George

This is purebred breeding. You will get scr*wed if you don't make it your job to know everything you can know. Throughout the history of modern day cattle breeding, there have been herds that were dispersed just to get rid of the problem before everyone knew it was there. P242 sits right back there in Creek's dam's pedigree, she was an obvious potential carrier. Of course, that is assuming you knew P242 was the suspected carrier of IE.

 

[Aero]

are you saying the seller knew they were carriers?

No, I'm not saying that they DID know! But I'll sure say they SHOULD have known!

George

how would they know?

 

[alexfarms]

are you saying the seller knew they were carriers?

No, I'm not saying that they DID know! But I'll sure say they SHOULD have known!

George

how would they know?

Igenity does a test for IE and it doesn't have to be reported to the AHA. I am not sure if you are required to notify the AHA if Dr Beever's lab does the test either. The only positive test results that are required to be listed on the pedigree is when the AHA processes the test through the lab they do business with. There are alot of bulls that are rumored to carry IE that aren't on the AHA list and it is not noted on their pedigree. The rumor I have heard is the P242 bull is the farthest back carrier that has been found...just a rumor. It has been suggested that a "spontaneous mutation" occured in the P242 bull that created the IE abnormality. The story goes P242's sire tested free of IE and his dam wasn't tested. She produced 3 other sons with no recorded progeny. It is interesting to note that P242's dam's dam has a tightly wrapped pedigree. Her maternal granddam, C627, is also the dam of her paternal grandsire...but that may not mean anything. Also the A112 cow appears twice in P242's dam's pedigree. It is most logical that a genetic abnormality would be hidden and passed along for generations in the cow lines, since the sire lines usually produce more offspring and get linebred more often. I don't think anyone knows for sure how P242 got the trait, to date P242 is a common ancestor in all carriers listed on the AHA website. IF, a carrier shows up that doesn't have P242 in his pedigree, but has ancestors of P242 in his pedigree a whole new can of worms will be opened up. From what I have heard the geneticists who have studied IE most believe P242 is as far back as it goes.

 

[Herefords.US]

are you saying the seller knew they were carriers?

No, I'm not saying that they DID know! But I'll sure say they SHOULD have known!

George

how would they know?

I first posted here on June 29, 2007 that P242 was the rumored source of IE. The DNA test for IE was available by early 2008, as I have an e-mail from a Line 1 breeder giving me the results of his whole herd tests that is dated Feb. 1, 2008. If I owned a high profile donor cow like 8063 that I knew went back to P242, I sure would have tested her back then, which is two+ years ago now.

George