Crash Course Angus

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

sSame as the others. Inform people about major blood lines, ranches, etc.

 

[3waycross]

sSame as the others. Inform people about major blood lines, ranches, etc.

And all the genetic traps those of us who raise other breeds need to look for such as 1407. I have been here for 3 years and until last week never heard a bad thing about that bull. How about showing some of that info the light of day so that the great unwashed hordes will know who to avoid, we we are trying to make our favorite breed into Angus clones.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

This kind of info would be helpful too.

 

[angus9259]

sSame as the others. Inform people about major blood lines, ranches, etc.

And all the genetic traps those of us who raise other breeds need to look for such as 1407. I have been here for 3 years and until last week never heard a bad thing about that bull. How about showing some of that info the light of day so that the great unwashed hordes will know who to avoid, we we are trying to make our favorite breed into Angus clones.

I think the association is in collusion with the Russians to destroy the integrity of all north american cattle through faulty angus genetics . . . saw it on Jesse Ventura's new show - conspiracy theory. or maybe it was the chinese?

 

[3waycross]

You are right. It's called the CAB conspiracy.

I was actually trying to be serious. If ya'll know a given animal is faulty, and I am still waiting to hear EXACTLY what's wrong with 1407 then why not let it see the light of day.

 

[vclavin]

You are right. It's called the CAB conspiracy.

I was actually trying to be serious. If ya'll know a given animal is faulty, and I am still waiting to hear EXACTLY what's wrong with 1407 then why not let it see the light of day.

As far as genetic defects... there's a list at the http://www.Angus.org website.
I still not sure either..even after being told, Oh well. He has some really cool sons
LCC New Standard
Spur Success
Sydgen Trust (just trying this year.. just don't like the high fat so using on cows that need it)

Sydgen Corona was defective so we can't use for registrations but would if you don't mind testing replacements for the defect.. awesome daughters and all the butcher steers/bulls were ultrasounded choice or prime.. yummy!!

Valerie

 

[jscunn]

Vclavin,

I dont think you are going to be disappointed on the Trust calves, we have a few on the ground this year and the best bull calf on the place is a Trust.. Alot of width of top and depth of rib at a young age (September calf). Using him heavier next year than this year. His moma is a really easy cow to look at.

I also agree about the Corona daughters, they are making awful good cows, I have to test a few calves but if they have males I am not testing and steering them. Really good udders too which is surprising considering the pedigree..

 

[robert]

1407 - bad udders (especially poor teat structure). Hard doing, excess amounts of white, all of which come directly from his mgs Sleep Easy.

General observations. If you want to avoid excess white (ie unregisterable calves) the main source is the Band lineage, you can also get it with bulls like Pine Drive Big Sky and Schearbrook Shoshone and their daughters. Some of the worst offenders I've observed are 6807, GT Maximum, OSU Ultra, Lucy's Boy, 1407, E161.

Temperament is a major concern and factor in my own herd selections, we don't tolerate bad dispositions, period. In our experience we have had no problems with EXT, though he often gets a bad rap on this issue, it is entirely possible that under our management in the East these cattle are better than in more extensive situations. Not going to argue with anyone on that score. Worst temperaments we've encountered were Lucy's Boy, Traveler 004 and California Travelers. 004's were the most variation, from easy and gentle to absolute psychopaths.

Fertility, 004's have been a wreck for us, only one made it past 5yo. New Days (full sib to 004's dam, go figure) have been excellent, as were EXTs, Explorer's, Bushwackers. 004 will improve udder quality, however if they don't stick around what's the point? EXT lines generally will fix udders in a generation, we have a Right Time x 6807 that really does a great job on the maternal side, functional traits, and semen more affordable for us 6807 and especially 044 his son worked well for both good udders and longevity.

Cow families. the resurgence in family naming and some of the hoopla surrounding it, plus the amount of ET work being done, has multiplied many so-so sorts of supposedly royal blood. Don't get me wrong, I'm a traditionalist and believe in the family naming system but don't get beguiled by stories of the great granddam who sold somewhere for mega bucks, find herds that have developed cow lines through selection and perseverence that meet your requirements, they won't all be famous lucy's, forever lady;s or blackcaps.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

This isn't exactly where I wanted this thread to go. I wanted people to focus on families and their attributes, origins, and things of this sort. not necessarily is this or that bull good.

If someone wants tojust take on one family and describe or talk about them then it can go from there.

edit: I mean cow or bull families. Not necessarily family operations.

 

[Caustic Burno]

This isn't exactly where I wanted this thread to go. I wanted people to focus on families and their attributes, origins, and things of this sort. not necessarily is this or that bull good.

If someone wants tojust take on one family and describe or talk about them then it can go from there.

It isn't the breed that makes the Cattleman, it is the business man. To make a seedstock operation it takes a real Cattleman and business man to make it sucessful, that is why so many seedstock producers last less than ten years.
It is much easier for the comercial cattleman as he has a better product for the buyer. That is just science as a crossbred calf is going to outperform a straightbred. The salebarn/buyer doesn't give a flip about papers they are looking at pounds and what it is going to cost to get them to the table.
Was a large Hereford operation that I have purchased from for years. The owner had to go into assisted living and the ranch had been passed down to him by his father. This operation had sucessfully operated for nearly one hundred years as a purebred operation. The kids thought the knew cattle and brought in Angus and Gelbvieh bulls.
Today there are no cows there and they are planting pine trees in the pastures after three years.
When I visit him in the home we always talk about cows and he tears up to see what his family built destroyed by his kids. Sometime we drive to see some of his cows, we go to the house.
There is a lot of bad management.
Moral to the story there are no bad breeds just bad management.

 

[3waycross]

1407 - bad udders (especially poor teat structure). Hard doing, excess amounts of white, all of which come directly from his mgs Sleep Easy.

General observations. If you want to avoid excess white (ie unregisterable calves) the main source is the Band lineage, you can also get it with bulls like Pine Drive Big Sky and Schearbrook Shoshone and their daughters. Some of the worst offenders I've observed are 6807, GT Maximum, OSU Ultra, Lucy's Boy, 1407, E161.

Temperament is a major concern and factor in my own herd selections, we don't tolerate bad dispositions, period. In our experience we have had no problems with EXT, though he often gets a bad rap on this issue, it is entirely possible that under our management in the East these cattle are better than in more extensive situations. Not going to argue with anyone on that score. Worst temperaments we've encountered were Lucy's Boy, Traveler 004 and California Travelers. 004's were the most variation, from easy and gentle to absolute psychopaths.

Fertility, 004's have been a wreck for us, only one made it past 5yo. New Days (full sib to 004's dam, go figure) have been excellent, as were EXTs, Explorer's, Bushwackers. 004 will improve udder quality, however if they don't stick around what's the point? EXT lines generally will fix udders in a generation, we have a Right Time x 6807 that really does a great job on the maternal side, functional traits, and semen more affordable for us 6807 and especially 044 his son worked well for both good udders and longevity.

Cow families. the resurgence in family naming and some of the hoopla surrounding it, plus the amount of ET work being done, has multiplied many so-so sorts of supposedly royal blood. Don't get me wrong, I'm a traditionalist and believe in the family naming system but don't get beguiled by stories of the great granddam who sold somewhere for mega bucks, find herds that have developed cow lines through selection and perseverence that meet your requirements, they won't all be famous lucy's, forever lady;s or blackcaps.

Thank You.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

3way - didn't know I was commenting about bad breeds or saying that purebred operations were better than commercial operations. That is not the intent of this thread either. Just trying to help people learn more about breeds they may not know much about, from a pedigree perspective.

I agree with much that you say, I even said in the Midwest Cattleman back in October that the heart of any good purebred operation often has or should have a commercial herd. I know we do, problem is, it is pretty decimated right now since I sold almost all of them private treaty. Now I have to rebuild that part of my operation again.

sorry 3way, I guess my comment should have be directed to Caustic...misread the author.

 

[3waycross]

I just want to know why everyone was knocking 1407. I have a grandson that I use to make Balancers and I think he's great. I just got his first dtrs this year so don't know about udders but will find out. My Gelbvieh cows have real nice bags so maybe it won't matter anyway.

 

[vclavin]

This isn't exactly where I wanted this thread to go. I wanted people to focus on families and their attributes, origins, and things of this sort. not necessarily is this or that bull good.

If someone wants tojust take on one family and describe or talk about them then it can go from there.

It isn't the breed that makes the Cattleman, it is the business man. To make a seedstock operation it takes a real Cattleman and business man to make it sucessful, that is why so many seedstock producers last less than ten years.
It is much easier for the comercial cattleman as he has a better product for the buyer. That is just science as a crossbred calf is going to outperform a straightbred. The salebarn/buyer doesn't give a flip about papers they are looking at pounds and what it is going to cost to get them to the table.
Was a large Hereford operation that I have purchased from for years. The owner had to go into assisted living and the ranch had been passed down to him by his father. This operation had sucessfully operated for nearly one hundred years as a purebred operation. The kids thought the knew cattle and brought in Angus and Gelbvieh bulls.
Today there are no cows there and they are planting pine trees in the pastures after three years.
When I visit him in the home we always talk about cows and he tears up to see what his family built destroyed by his kids. Sometime we drive to see some of his cows, we go to the house.
There is a lot of bad management.
Moral to the story there are no bad breeds just bad management.

That is just science as a crossbred calf is going to outperform a straightbred. The salebarn/buyer doesn't give a flip about Not true in our herd. Registered still outperforms the xbreeds even when the crosses are handled the very same way, AI, feed, ultrasound. Everything. THia year, ony 1 bull calf has equaled or outperformed a herdmate...both were out of Objective.
Valerie

 

[Caustic Burno]

This isn't exactly where I wanted this thread to go. I wanted people to focus on families and their attributes, origins, and things of this sort. not necessarily is this or that bull good.

If someone wants tojust take on one family and describe or talk about them then it can go from there.

It isn't the breed that makes the Cattleman, it is the business man. To make a seedstock operation it takes a real Cattleman and business man to make it sucessful, that is why so many seedstock producers last less than ten years.
It is much easier for the comercial cattleman as he has a better product for the buyer. That is just science as a crossbred calf is going to outperform a straightbred. The salebarn/buyer doesn't give a flip about papers they are looking at pounds and what it is going to cost to get them to the table.
Was a large Hereford operation that I have purchased from for years. The owner had to go into assisted living and the ranch had been passed down to him by his father. This operation had sucessfully operated for nearly one hundred years as a purebred operation. The kids thought the knew cattle and brought in Angus and Gelbvieh bulls.
Today there are no cows there and they are planting pine trees in the pastures after three years.
When I visit him in the home we always talk about cows and he tears up to see what his family built destroyed by his kids. Sometime we drive to see some of his cows, we go to the house.
There is a lot of bad management.
Moral to the story there are no bad breeds just bad management.

That is just science as a crossbred calf is going to outperform a straightbred. The salebarn/buyer doesn't give a flip about Not true in our herd. Registered still outperforms the xbreeds even when the crosses are handled the very same way, AI, feed, ultrasound. Everything. THia year, ony 1 bull calf has equaled or outperformed a herdmate...both were out of Objective.
Valerie

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You get the BS flag.
You need to haul that bunch of cows to TAMU and tell them along with every other Ag university they got it wrong.

 

[Caustic Burno]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an165
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/400/400-805/400-805.html
http://animalscience.tamu.edu/images/pd ... csE189.pdf


Here is some light reading you might want to write to the directors of the Agscience departments and tell them you decided they have it wrong.

No one has done it better.

By Tom Lasater
When Tom Lasater got involved with his family's cattle operation in 1931, he didn't set out to run a purebred operation. His only objective was to produce profitable cattle. Ultimately his common-sense approach to breeding cattle for profit led to the creation of the Beefmaster breed. He understood that "good genetics mean good economics."

There is a tendency in the purebred business to chase the latest fads that often have nothing to do with economics. The show ring, for example, has little if any relation to the real world of raising profitable cattle. Most show cattle have been raised completely out of their element and have been overfed. You wonder sometimes if these fat show cattle could survive a whole year without a bucket of grain in front of them every day. The shows may be fun to watch, and they are certainly fun to win, but they have little to do with raising the right kind of cattle. The show ring lends itself to the extremes. Functional cattle can't be great in just a few traits; they have to be good in every trait that is important to production.

Focusing on any single trait is always a mistake, no matter what that trait is. One of the biggest pushes in the purebred industry for the past twenty years has been growth. Growth is fantastic. Who would complain about big calves at weaning? Bigger calves bring more money than smaller calves. So for the past twenty years, huge changes have been made to the gene pool of the American cattle herd, but little attention has been given to the economic result of such changes. The selection of growth without regard to other important traits (in other words, single-trait selection) can be costly and disastrous. Extreme growth results in enormous cows that require large amounts of feed in order to be productive and fertile. More feed and open cows add up to less money in the pocket book. Here at the Lasater Ranch, we select for growth, within a multi-trait selection program that provides the proper checks and balances. By requiring an animal to exhibit each of the six characteristics essential for economic beef production, we avoid all the extremes.

The Lasater program is actually very simple. We want fertile, trouble-free cattle that will produce high quality calves year after year depending primarily on the resources our land can provide. That spells profit. The ones that can do it, we keep, and the ones that can't, we get rid of. It's as simple as that. The right kind of cattle are the ones that can do it all, but they are not extreme in any one area.

Read more about the details of the Lasater Ranch Selection Program, and see how your program can benefit from the same approach, or better yet, let Lasater Beefmaster® genetics give you the "unfair advantage" every cattleman needs.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

it probably depends on how crossbred those cows are. At a certain point you lose the vigor and just go mongrel. Lasater was far from the first to discover the advantages of crossbreeding. The wheel inventor he is not.

 

[Caustic Burno]

it probably depends on how crossbred those cows are. At a certain point you lose the vigor and just go mongrel. Lasater was far from the first to discover the advantages of crossbreeding. The wheel inventor he is not.

This is science again you get hybred vigor in a two way cross and is maximized in a 3way cross. After that all bets are off to many genetics in the woodpile.
I didn't say Lasater invented the wheel I said no one has done it better.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

I was refering to the level of x-bred in val's cows. I think most on here are aware of the 3way cross

Lasater best...debatable.

 

[angus9259]

I just want to know why everyone was knocking 1407. I have a grandson that I use to make Balancers and I think he's great. I just got his first dtrs this year so don't know about udders but will find out. My Gelbvieh cows have real nice bags so maybe it won't matter anyway.

1407 creates heavy milking daughters with larger teats. He also has a tendency to throw white on the bag. I have a number of daughters out of him and I intend to retain their heifers - I like the dams and I like what they do. I don't have any problems with the daughters at all but agree with the mechanical assessments. That said, I have no issue with some white on the bag and I probably wouldn't line breed any of those teat and udder genetics. Every tool is helpful if used appropriately.