Cow not cycling and related questions

[milkmaid]

I've got a situation here that I'm hoping someone can help me out with. I have a nurse cow that was bred back before I accquired her and confirmed pregnant. She then came down with a severe case of footrot, became extremely lame, and dropped a lot of weight. That's when I brought her to my place. She has since recovered to the point where she walks almost sound, I've had her feet trimmed and so far, so good.

Problem is, I had her vet checked about 2 months after accquiring her; she should have been about 160 days along. Vet said she appeared to have slipped the calf and quit cycling. Said cow had a follicle (sp?) about 10mm (think that's the measurement) and should come into heat in a few weeks. Apparently dairy cows are bred to keep producing milk until they die - if they get sick, their reproductive system will quit working before they stop milking. Or something to that extent. So my nurse cow had too many nutritional demands on her and the repro system stopped temporarily.

So, this cow did not come into heat when expected, and I had the vet back out to check her. Cow apparently was not cycling, follicles completely flat - or something to that extent. If she had been bred, she would have been about 190 days along.

However...I'm wondering if there's any possibility this cow IS bred. I know this vet doesn't usually mess up, and he's usually extremely accurate, but when I look at this cow, she carries weight on the lower right side like she might have a calf in there. I'm aware that you can't tell by looking so perhaps it's just wistful thinking. And then that this cow would have been around 100 days along when she came to my place; so I'd think I'd notice if she slipped it.

I know next to nothing about palpating cows. Might a bred cow possibly feel like a open cow that was not cycling? any chance of that? I'd ask my vet, but at least the way I view it, it would sound insulting to ask - questioning his ability.

If this cow is bred, she'd be close to drying off, so I'd need to know one way or the other. Would anyone be able to shed some light on this for me?

 

[Vicky the vet]

at 190 days along, it may be difficult to feel the pregnancy in a deep cow. The vet would/should also be feeling for a palpable thrill of the uterine artery. No thrill, no live calf. There are hormone tests which can be done to see if she's pregnant, but it may be difficult to tell a cystic cow from a pregnant one at that stage of gestation.

Good Luck
V

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Vicky, thanks for sharing that. I never heard that before.

 

[Kathleen]

I am a dairy farmer with lots of experience with cows not breeding back for one reason or another. I think that at 190 days the vet should be able to tell, and given the cow's history it is pretty likely that she is not pregnant. Did your vet mention lutalyse? If you give it it could bring the cow in heat, but if she were pregnant it could abort her as well. If she is cystic, that could stop her from showing heat, or it could cause her to show heats at irregular intervals. There are cysts that the vet needs to take care of and there are cysts that respond to cisterellin (sp).

Do you want to fool around with this cow? I know that there is a time period for breeding beef cows and it might not pay, but if you want to, you could have her checked again with the idea of trying lutalyse. Do you breed artificially? Sometimes the breeder can help you determine if the cow is bred.

Right now I have several cows that I gave lutalyse to and I'm just waiting for some sunshine and green grass. That usually does wonders. You might just wait, have another vet check and see if he can bring her in heat. She may be ready to breed in May, which will give you an early spring calf.

 

[dun]

I've always heard about the tuft of hair, but the only ones I have actaully seen had the bottle brush look. The other freemartins I've seen have been as older animals and their vulva looked normal.
It's a tough call. A couple of years ago we had a twin bull and heifer and she past all of the tests. All except the DNA test. Wouldn;t have really cared but I really wanted to retain that heifer, that's why we did the blood test rather then keep her and hope, or ship her and wonder.

dun

 

[milkmaid]

My vet's feeling was that there's no sure-fire way to bring her into heat when she's not cycling at all - lutalyse would bring her in if she were already cycling. For instance, we've given lutalyse to fresh cows that had a uterine infection after calving, but it doesn't bring them into heat. Whereas cows that have a uterine infection but were cycling come into heat after being given lutalyse.

This cow is still worth keeping around, as she's still milking heavy and has four calves on her, so I don't mind messing around with her.

My vet asked what kind of nutrition she was getting, as she's still slightly underweight. He said she might not be getting enough protein to start up her reproductive system. Where she's milking heavy and only just healing up from the lameness problem she still has a lot of nutritional demands on her system. He also said that if she were to get enough nutrition starting now, it would still be 40 days before she were to come into heat.

As far as her nutrition goes, I have her on 30-35 lbs of alfalfa hay, 15lbs of rolled barley, and 2lbs of whole cottonseed per day. I only just recently put her on cottonseed to try to add some weight to her - besides the fact that it is around 24% protein.

Thanks!

 

[jt]

milkmaid... what kind of cow is this? unless this is an awfully big cow, i would think that at 190 days the fetus could be bumped in there by your vet... if you want to be sure... wait about a month and have her checked again..

if she is open, you might have to take some of the load (calves) off her and get her in better shape to get her cycling..

good luck

jt

 

[milkmaid]

She's a Holstein, I'd estimate her weight around 1200-1300lbs. I have a picture of her that I took a few weeks ago, but it doesn't do her justice. She's better looking than this picture shows.

The vet thought the same thing - if I were to take the calves away and dry her up she'd probably start cycling very soon, but I can't afford to take the calves off her. She wouldn't be paying her way.

I also can't think of any way to take some of the load off her system - even if I take two of the calves off she's still going to be giving the same amount of milk if I give her the same amount of feed, and I obviously can't decrease the feed so she'll give less milk. At least that's the way I look at it - maybe I'm missing something.

 

[jt]

she looks better than i thought... unless the picture shadow makes her look better than she really is.. anyway.. it sounds like you are going to keep calves on her for at least a while... i wouild just continue to watch her and re check her again in a month or 2 and go from there... if she continues to be able to raise 4 calves, sounds like she is doing what you want.. if she falls off, then you will have to decide when to pull them if that is what it takes to get her rebred..

but sooner or later the cycle will have to be broken, and it needs to be sooner if she is heavy bred...

good luck

jt

 

[Kathleen]

She's a nice looking Holstein--probably not very old either. I see you are still in the throes of winter. It's my feeling that Spring and green grass will work wonders. And I don't really feel that keeping her milking will hurt her chances of getting rebred at all. And I do agree that there is always a chance that she could be bred, so waiting a month or so would be a good idea. At eight months one can usually "bump" a calf on the cow's right side.

There are several protocols that are used by artificial breeders. The one I have used goes like this:

Day 0 GnRH
Day 7 Prostaglandin
Day 9 GnRH again

Then I watch intensely for heat. Usually I let one heat go by and breed on the next one.

You might try injecting her with some vitamins. My vet is big on B-12 for run-down cows.

Good luck with her. Does she have a name???

 

[milkmaid]

Here she is again with pictures I took yesterday evening.

I think she just had her second calf last fall, but I'm not entirely certain. Her previous owner doesn't keep the best records. :lol: He doesn't do A.I. - just runs a couple of bulls with his milking herd.

I also tried bumping her yesterday and I don't feel a calf, unfortunately. There's been some cows I've been unable to bump a calf on, or were so slab-sided looking you wouldn't believe there was a calf in there until its feet showed...so anything's possible.

As far as a name, she's known only as "Three-eleven", the number on her tag. I've had cattle with names before, but I'm starting to get to the point where I've owned enough I'm running out of names. LOL.

Thanks again for the responses. =)

 

[TheBullLady]

It looks like you're doing a good job getting her back into shape Milkmaid.

I'll bet she is open, especially if you can't bump a calf. She'll probably start cycling again when she's filled out a little more. I've had thin (especially first calf heifers) cows that don't cycle until they regain some of their pre-calving weight.

 

[Kathleen]

Hi Milkmaid,

Great to see pictures; how did you get them on the Forum? Looks like Spring is slow to come to Idaho, but the scenery looks mighty fine.

Do you breed AI or do you use a bull?

Good luck with Three Eleven and with all the rest.

I'm trying to get a few cows bred myself, so I'll be thinking about you.

Kathy

 

[milkmaid]

Finally back online - been really busy lately!

Thanks for the responses. =)

I use villagephotos.com for my pictures - usually a reliable website that I can access whenever I need to.

Three-eleven is only the second cow I've owned - all the rest have been calves - so I haven't had to mess around with getting cows bred before. The first cow I owned was bred when I bought her, which was really nice. With three-eleven I'll either have my vet A.I. her, or, if I know when she's going to come in heat I may be able to walk her down the road to the neighboring dairy (same place I bought her from) and let her run with the bull.