Complicated delivery?? Please reply, Thanks!

[nurseynicole]

So we are newish to this whole calving business only 3 years in, seen plenty but have a new situation and would love some speculation from you experienced folks. Our cows are salebarn cows, the one I am discussing wasn't reported as bred and didn't "appear" to be either, she is just a nice solid cow but really didn't look bred and definately didn't look term. Thursday when we were out feeding and checking cows I saw a bag hanging out, it wasn't semen or anything else this was a bag, but there was no pressure, it wasn't bulging just literally hangin down about 6". I do think there was some fluid in it at the bottom. Whether the membranes had ruptured or not I don't know. She was at the hay ring eating acting 100% normal then had grain, right there with everyone else nothing was off. Told to hubs to put her in the barn and he just though I was crazy so he left her out. Friday we check her close again there is no bag and she again is active and acting completely normal. We drove every inch of the pasture they are in and there was no blood nothing and with snow on the ground we were pretty sure nothing had happened yet. Sat he checks again she looks just fine eating hay with all the others. Today she had the calf, when he found him the calf was lethargic and floppy mom was nudging him and licking a little but baby was poor. Mom had passed the placenta and was eating it then. He went ahead and pulled the calf with no fight from mom or baby, warmed him and tubed him with colostrum. This was at 10am and finally with help the calf got up @ 5pm. He is planning on trying to bottle him as he had a bit of a suck this evening or will tube him again if no luck with the bottle. One thing that he mentioned to me was that the calf's poop didn't look right to him. He said that it literally looked like dog poop. Said it was just a little black but mostly brown... this whole situation has me perplexed and I would love someone to throw something my way. What do you guys think of a dose of Baytril just in case? I just talked to him and he said that the calf is shivering but that he feels warm. He is in the cellar room which does not freeze with some dry blankets. Okay I'll stop......Thanks in advance! Nicole

 

[shortybreeder]

I guess I have never heard of Baytril, or had to deal with this type of situation in my beef herd, but growing up on a dairy herd I have plenty of experience with bottles and tubes! The one thing I've heard is that you should never tube a calf more than 3 times because tubing is hard on their throats, and past 3 times it is very easy to cause permanent damage. We had a neighbor who tubed their calf morning and night for 2 weeks, then finally gave up on it and sold it to someone. The next week we had a dairy meeting and my dad talked to the vet about it, the vet said the day before he had just been on the farm who bought the calf and had to give it some drugs to try and perk it up but didn't see much hope in it. I'm not saying you have to give up on the calf after 3 tubings, I'm just saying that if he doesn't want to suck or can't get up, don't feel bad when you get to week 2 of tubing and feel like giving up on it... Things happen, and not every calf is 100% "there."
Sorry I can't be of more help... Some of the other people on here will definitely have good words of wisdom though!
Let us know how he turns out!

 

[Black and Good]

:welcome: ? You said she had the calf, then said you pulled the calf ?? Do you mean you took it away from the cow? The way you described her nudging and licking the calf and eating the placenta. I don't think I would have done anything at that point except maybe leave them alone for a couple hours and come back. It sounded like to me momma was claiming the calf and getting him cleaned up. When those calves are first born they can appear pretty droopy and lethargic. Sometimes those calves can just lay there for the longest time before trying to stand and nurse. Sometimes they get up before the cow. What was the weather like? With just reading what you posted I would have to say I think you intervened to quickly. Keep us posted and welcome to the site. B&G

 

[mjnetex]

Sometimes an injection of Banamine works miracles, I'd do 1.5 cc per 100 lbs., no more, in the muscle, I've used it as a last resort a couple of times with lethargic calves, and was amazed, sometimes they are sore and/or inflamed and just feel too bad to function. Sometimes. He'll perk up within just a few hours if it is going to help. I was ready to give up on a calf I had been tubing for five days and this "cured" him.

 

[randiliana]

Sounds to me like you are really lucky to have a live calf, especially if what you saw was membranes on Thursday and she didn't calve til Sunday! Unless what you saw was mucous....

Anyways, the poop you saw was probably just meconium, the first BM the calf has and it looks wierd. So unless it continues to look like that I wouldn't worry too much.

Weak, stressed calves can take quite a while to get going. Good for you that you've gotten him to the house and fed him quickly, that might make all the difference in the end. I would attempt to bottle feed him every feeding, and you should be feeding him 3-4 times a day, especially since he is so weak. If you plan to have him go on his mother eventually, you need to get him back out there with her asap. As soon as he is warmed up get him out there with her, it will make things a lot easier once you get him up and going, she'll hopefully take him back without issues, but the longer you keep them separated the harder it will be to get her to accept him.

I wouldn't worry too much at this point if he won't suck or doesn't suck the whole feeding down. Tube him with whatever he doesn't suck. If he's sucking at all, you have it easy, sooner or later he'll get strong enough to eat the whole bottle! If he won't suck at all, tube him for 3-4 days, until you believe he is good and strong. Then, simply miss a feeding. I've done this, and it works (especially if he has a loving mama) he'll get hungry and start looking for something to eat, and eventually he will catch on and start sucking mama. I've had a few cases that I'd pretty much given up on and it worked. You're not going to hurt him if he misses a feed, if he doesn't figure it out by the next feeding, you can tube him again, but I would keep him on the hungry side. A full calf isn't going to look for his next meal. Oh, and don't be in the barn bugging them all the time, a watched pot never boils.....

A pain killer wouldn't be a terrible idea. I can't help you with baytril as I've never had anything to do with it. Watch him for dehydration, he might need a dose of electrolytes at some point. And how much milk are you feeding him at a feeding? How big is he, that will make a difference in how much he needs to eat. A 60 lb calf can't and doesn't need as much as a 90 lb calf does. But if he's in that 60-90 range 1.5 -2 quarts is about what he should get per feeding, depending on how often you are feeding him.

 

[Tim/South]

Could what you saw a couple of days earlier been a vaginal prolapse? I have seen that mistake made before. If it was then you will most likely see it again during the next week.
How does the momma cow act when the calf tries to nurse? Will she stand still and allow the calf to nudge around?
I would keep the cow with the calf so they can bond. Removing a calf early can stress the momma cow into searching for her calf.

I have had to held first calf heifers adjust to being a momma. Have milked her and fed the colostrum to the calf. I always pen them together. We also use a goat nipple when we feel it necessary to help a newborn nurse by supplementing with a bottle.
Just some personal opinions.

 

[nurseynicole]

Black and Good we took the calf she had delivered and considering the calf still has been lethargic I don't think this was a case of wait and watch, It was 20 with snow on the ground also. I know that it was membranes that were hanging I am an OB nurse also and know exactly what they look like. We have had many calves and even had to assist with deliveries so were aren't completely blind. The calf is still pitifull this am, tried to bottle last night with no luck, so tubed again. Hate to tube but I know he won't make it without it. Should we put him out with her even though he can't even stand on his own yet?? Seems crazy to do so to me but I do understand getting him to mom asap too... He has stood twice now, but only when we help him to get up. I do think the banamine is a good idea and thanks for that! Wish I had some B12 to give him for a little boost too but I think I will try a little Karo on the bottle nipple and let him get a little sugar high too. Thank you all so much for the comments! I love to try to learn new tricks and info, we are more than willing and able to spend some time and effort on this calf so feel free to continue to comment. I am trying to remember back to bottle babies but I am thinking we did a quart of replacer three times a day at first he is probably around 55-60lbs'ish He is getting his third dose of colostrum supp this am and then I guess we'll go to replacer if we can't get him on mom....Thanks again!

 

[Black and Good]

You might try and get some Probotics down him its a paste type stuff that kinda jumpstarts their stomachs. How is the cow looking and acting now? B&G

 

[nurseynicole]

Husband said that he is starting to talk a little, still wouldn't bottle just now. He gave him a dose of Banamine and tubed more colostrum. He just seems weak to me. He hasn't stood on his own that we have seen, hubs is going to bed him down on some hay in the center of the pen and let her come that way. The blankets haven't been washed yet that he dried him with, should he lay those out there too to help with scent and recognition or am I overthinking again lol?

 

[nurseynicole]

B&G I misread the mama seems fine it eating hay with the others this morning.....

 

[branguscowgirl]

I would keep the scented blankets with him and momma. Those birthing fluids are what she needs to smell on him. Keep them separate from the other cows. I give all my newborns a shot of Selenium and a shot of A&D at birth. Seems to help perk them up.
Good luck, and keep us informed!

 

[dun]

You might shot a shot of selenium, it can do surprising thing for slow/weak calves.

 

[Black and Good]

Nursey, Good luck with him. I had one like that last year that I pulled out of the pond/mud. He got a bad start and just seemed like a big dummy. I lost him after bout a week of fighting him and her. Keep us posted. B&G

 

[randiliana]

I would put him out with her, as long as you have somewhere where they can be locked up in a small pen and out of the elements. If its cold and you don't have a barn, better to keep him indoors!

 

[cowgirl_jenna]

Any chance that this could of been twins? How big is this calf. I do know of cows having twins a few hours a part maybe longer.? Was the cow in a large lot when you noticed the bag/membranes the first time. It's prob. unlikely, but wouldn't be the first. Good luck with the lil guy, don't give up on him yet the fact he is alive is motivation enough to keep trying things.
Jenna

 

[nurseynicole]

Jenna, no twins we had snow on the ground and never found anything in that pasture except for when he was born, and although I am no great at estimating weights I think around 60ish? maybe even a little more he is a good sized calf. Thanks all for the encouragement! We raised bottle calves 3 years ago and grew them out to 700-800lbs! We learned a lot from that bout lol! He is still about the same and Momma didn't want anything to do with him at all completely ignored him. We made a decision to just let him be a bottle baby if we can get him turned around. LIttle surprised that after 6 quarts of colostrum he hasn't started passing any yet. He is passing his mec but no colostrum poop yet. I guess even his gut is just a slow to come around. I am thinking now that we have been dealing with some shock also maybe d/t cold stress or whatever caused mom a delay in delivery. His gums were very pale but are now starting to pink up. We are more than willing to keep going just learned a long time ago not to spend the bank. Have about $60 between the replacer we use and colostrum not planning on doing much more just supporting him. We are moving to replacer tonight he was 24 hours this morning, and will keep trying to get him to suck, so far no luck there. We had a 100# calf from a heifer last year that we had to pull, he was pretty much dead we wouldn't give up and sold him in the fall and made the bank on him we tubed him for 2 weeks! I know they can turn around so we will just keep him out of the cold and keep going until he either goes downhill or gets better! I will follow up if anything changes....Thanks again!

 

[nurseynicole]

UPDATE!
Calf is doing better today, took 1 pink this am by bottle, 1pm 2 pints and 2 pints this evening! He went out to play and was bucking around and jumping with the dog lol. Looks like day 3 is the turning point! We have pretty much decided that we have a new bottle baby, which is okay too. Question do they have weigh tapes for calves?

 

[shortybreeder]

UPDATE!
Calf is doing better today, took 1 pink this am by bottle, 1pm 2 pints and 2 pints this evening! He went out to play and was bucking around and jumping with the dog lol. Looks like day 3 is the turning point! We have pretty much decided that we have a new bottle baby, which is okay too. Question do they have weigh tapes for calves?

Yes, we got ours free at a Land O Lakes event, but they have weigh tapes for sale at most feed stores. Usually pretty cheap, though not always accurate. It mostly depends on the weigher's experience with tapes (I am not very good with them, I usually end up with my tape saying 110-120 pounds...)

 

[branguscowgirl]

Great news! :banana: :clap:

 

[wacocowboy]

if you got him up and nursing put him back in pen with momma if she won't let him nurse put her in chute and show him her bag may have to squeeze some milk in his mouth but he will get the idea and take over and let him do that may have to do it several times but there is a good chance especially since its her calf she will take it after awhile and better to let her raise it than you I have done this several times almost always works have even had it work with calves that don't belong to that cow and in the future if you have another one like that you can dump regular pedalite in with the milk and tube it and that will give them a boast