Is there such a thing as foundering from cold weather? My Poa foundered last winter also & now again since our temps have been colder again. It has been at the freezing point during the day & around 18 @ night. She really was pretty good all summer - not great but o.k. She has been on pasture - could it be the freeze thaw? Or just the temperature? When she is in her corral she just gets a little grass hay & sprinkle of oats. What about metabolism? Does anyone know how that affects founder? Would love to know if anyone else has dealt with something like this. Thanks!
Cold founder?
- Thread starter Kelly
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cattle_gal
Well-known member
Kelly,
Ponies are more prone to laminitis and founder than a lot of other breeds. Since she foundered once already, grain and higher nutrient grass hay can make her more susceptible quicker to foundering again. How has her diet changed from summer to the way it is now? How much lbs hay and grain does she receive now? Is she over weight?
Ponies are more prone to laminitis and founder than a lot of other breeds. Since she foundered once already, grain and higher nutrient grass hay can make her more susceptible quicker to foundering again. How has her diet changed from summer to the way it is now? How much lbs hay and grain does she receive now? Is she over weight?
The only change in her diet is hay instead of her barron pasture she was kept in. She really isn't getting alot of hay, maybe about 8 - 10 #'s. I suppose I could drop it a little but she seems like she is always starving. She has been overweight - dropped a little in the summer now still a little overweight. Mostly just the crested neck that bothers me. She just gets a sprinkle of oats for grain. The weird thing is the only thing she foundered on last winter too is just her grass hay! She seems to get bad after every cold snap. I am going to do some research on insulin resistance and see if that may be her problem. When I tested her throid last year it was just barely under the normal range. I put her on thyroid meds to see if it made a difference & it really didn't. Thanks for your reply - I appreciate it!
Kelly,
Cattle gal is right on, if she has foundered once she can do it again easier.
Do you have more details? How old id your horse? Has a Vet confirmed founder? Is it pure POA or does it have other breeding? Are you giving her anything else, ie; alfafa, grain, molassas ect.? Any other signs then the crested neck?
Alan
Cattle gal is right on, if she has foundered once she can do it again easier.
Do you have more details? How old id your horse? Has a Vet confirmed founder? Is it pure POA or does it have other breeding? Are you giving her anything else, ie; alfafa, grain, molassas ect.? Any other signs then the crested neck?
Alan
She is 8 years old. She is on no other feed or grain. The vet suspected founder last winter - but at the same time she was lame on her back leg from we think reinjuring an injury she got the year before. As of this summer her feet have the rings on the feet as they are growing out. Just the crested neck & a little overweight and the walking very tenderly on her front feet are the only other signs. I don't know what is in her breeding. The only other thing I can think of is we had more clover in our grass hay this year ( but I know last years hay didn't have the clover in it & she still foundered) It just kind of seems hard to believe that a horse can founder on just a little grass hay.
tons of things can cause founder. any sudden change in the diet--hay, lush newgrowth grass, grain overload. In addition any kind of stress can trigger it too or anything that causes a release of endotoxins in the body. Plus overweight horses and ponies are more prone to foundering. heavily fertilized bermuda could be your culprit? one of my horses just foundered this past week but i think its b/c my dad fed her too much oats while i was gone.
cattle_gal
Well-known member
Kelly,
Sound like the classic Laminitis. Rings and crested neck. The crested neck is going to be her trade mark now. So if you can, think of it as a character trait ;-)
Her hay could very well be to rich for her system. And prehaps forget about feeding any of the the oats. Oats have more protein than other grains even though they are the "safer" grain to feed with less energy.
If she is locked up from here pasture, where she had room, but now doesn't have room to move alot, her lack of movement decreases the circulation also. But now that she Laminitis again, and probably foundered (coffin bone rotated down), you will need to walk her a little to exercies her and get the circulation going if she does not want to move. There have been newer methods of treating founder, but I haven't kept up with it the past few years. If we take into consideration that cold water slows bad tissue, but warm water gets the circulation going - prehaps besides maybe the hay being to rich for her, her circulation has decreased becasue of the cold weather making her more prone to founder, and being stiff. Maybe soak her feet in buckets of water(with epsum salt) - if she will stand. I don't know how you feel about Bute (I dislike the stuff) or another product of different ingredents, but maybe a pain pill will help her and the inflamation.
I guess one way to know if your hay is to rich is to have it tested for TDN and minerals and the such. Then get with your vet and talk about it.
How is she trimmed or shod?
There is a farrier website out there that is good that will help you with your foundering horse and up to date treatments. I will have to think about what the site is. It's been along time since I've visited there.
Sound like the classic Laminitis. Rings and crested neck. The crested neck is going to be her trade mark now. So if you can, think of it as a character trait ;-)
Her hay could very well be to rich for her system. And prehaps forget about feeding any of the the oats. Oats have more protein than other grains even though they are the "safer" grain to feed with less energy.
If she is locked up from here pasture, where she had room, but now doesn't have room to move alot, her lack of movement decreases the circulation also. But now that she Laminitis again, and probably foundered (coffin bone rotated down), you will need to walk her a little to exercies her and get the circulation going if she does not want to move. There have been newer methods of treating founder, but I haven't kept up with it the past few years. If we take into consideration that cold water slows bad tissue, but warm water gets the circulation going - prehaps besides maybe the hay being to rich for her, her circulation has decreased becasue of the cold weather making her more prone to founder, and being stiff. Maybe soak her feet in buckets of water(with epsum salt) - if she will stand. I don't know how you feel about Bute (I dislike the stuff) or another product of different ingredents, but maybe a pain pill will help her and the inflamation.
I guess one way to know if your hay is to rich is to have it tested for TDN and minerals and the such. Then get with your vet and talk about it.
How is she trimmed or shod?
There is a farrier website out there that is good that will help you with your foundering horse and up to date treatments. I will have to think about what the site is. It's been along time since I've visited there.
Oldtimer
Well-known member
More good horses are ruined by overfeeding than injured by underfeeding----Horses have a tendancy to "eat like a horse".. they eat way more than they need-- Horses do better when they only have a few hours on pasture, lower quantities of hay, and unless being worked small quantities or no grain.......Horses are kind of like humans- they have evolved and upbred over the years, but the amount of work they are doing has lessened- Most anymore don't get half the work they need to keep them healthy- if you eat the same, you get fat.....
Look at the pictures of some of the old horses of the 1800's, early 1900's that were being worked constantly- They were in good muscular and body shape- but were fed less grain then we feed many of our dormant horses today--
Look at the pictures of some of the old horses of the 1800's, early 1900's that were being worked constantly- They were in good muscular and body shape- but were fed less grain then we feed many of our dormant horses today--
Well said oldtimer! So many horses just stand in the pasture or stall until the owner decides to go on that 10 mile trail ride once a year. The reason they only ride once a year is because they get on and the horse tires in the first half mile or is fighting the rider because of lack of regular training (brushing up).
Sorry tired of seeing skinny horses in over grazed pastures.
Alan
Sorry tired of seeing skinny horses in over grazed pastures.
Alan
Thanks for the replys! I am going to try the warm water soaks to see if that will help her. I have had no choice but to have her on bute - I tried to take her off after a few days but the next day she couldn't move any of her legs. The vet wants her stalled with lot's of shavings - then she gets stiff and is sore all over. If I bring her out to the little paddock to move around it is icy & hurts to walk on her feet. I called the farrier to come & trim her(to get some toe off for comfort) & she says she won't come until AFTER I gave her mineral oil( I thought you only oiled for grain overload which I told her she gets no grain) & was walking real good or it won't help to trim her. I am now in the process of trying to find a new farrier that is willing to come help - evidently she did not want to make the trip out. Thanks again!
cattle_gal
Well-known member
Here is a website to go to and find a certified farrier.
http://www.americanfarriers.org/
They should all be able to do therapeutic shoeing and do it right. Which you may want to consider putting shoes on. disperse pressure to different spots. Putting on a heart bar shoe or a frog pad with shoe for proper presure placement to make her comfortable and prehaps keep the coffin bone from rotating(more). But having a farrier that knows the right pressure.
If you keep her stalled and can't move her do some massaging. Simulate circulation. If you have done any Linda Tellington Jones (T.E.A.M.) this would be good for her.
http://www.americanfarriers.org/
They should all be able to do therapeutic shoeing and do it right. Which you may want to consider putting shoes on. disperse pressure to different spots. Putting on a heart bar shoe or a frog pad with shoe for proper presure placement to make her comfortable and prehaps keep the coffin bone from rotating(more). But having a farrier that knows the right pressure.
If you keep her stalled and can't move her do some massaging. Simulate circulation. If you have done any Linda Tellington Jones (T.E.A.M.) this would be good for her.
CattleAnnie
Well-known member
Agree with OT. Too much feed and too little work ruin more horses than neglect. Killed by kindness, you could say. Ponies and drafts are really easy to founder, as both are easy keepers.
I'm a little leary of putting heat on a horse's legs if it's foundering. Seems to me (just a thought) that you want to get the heat out, not add more.
A friend of mine had a two year old QH gelding grass founder this summer. You could feel the heat in his frogs. Cold water therapy (hosing) and lots of it brought him around to soundness. Helped take the heat out of his hooves and reduced his discomfort. Bute too, of course.
Sure hope you make out okay with the little critter.
I'm a little leary of putting heat on a horse's legs if it's foundering. Seems to me (just a thought) that you want to get the heat out, not add more.
A friend of mine had a two year old QH gelding grass founder this summer. You could feel the heat in his frogs. Cold water therapy (hosing) and lots of it brought him around to soundness. Helped take the heat out of his hooves and reduced his discomfort. Bute too, of course.
Sure hope you make out okay with the little critter.
ffscj
Well-known member
Have to agree with Old Timer about horses "eating like a horse." Had a vet tell me one time that "the only three animals that will eat themselves to death are horses, dogs and humans." So maybe we should say that horses "eat like a man."
Chris
Chris
TR
Well-known member
Kelly,
I'm so sorry to hear about your pony. My faithful friend and partner of 17 years lost a bout with founder this past spring. He was only on pasture, but with the large amount of rain that we had pushed the grass up quick, and he foundered before I could even see that there was grass out there for him to eat. He wasn't overweight, nor did he exhibit the typical crestiness that alot of founder cases show.
In any case, research, vets and farriers that I used all suggested that there was a move towards warm water soaks to increase the circulation in the feet, as its the lack of circulation that causes the laminar tissue to die. Apparently the carbohydrate overload causes the tissue to shunt off circulation to the feet and its that lack of circulation that causes blood loss to the laminar tissue which inevitably causes it to die and the result is the coffin bone rotation. Each founder case is apparently unique depending on factors such as how much feed or carbohydrates were ingested and how each horse individually reacts to that overload. Each horses' founder cycle will differ as to the severity and its ability to overcome the inflamation and subsequent tissue death. My poor guy's cycle took about 6 weeks before the laminar tissue death caused massive abcesses in his left foot which caused him to put weight on his right which was too much for the remaining laminar tissue to support and his coffin bone ended up sinking through his sole. Corrective shoing is also standard treatment for founder cases. Heartbars are most common, but there are new trends towards using a 4pt trimming method, shoing and a polymer padding used to not only support the frog (and coffin bone that resides just above it), but the entire sole resulting in the weight being distributed over the entire foot.
All in all, its a tough, horrible condition, and my heart goes out to anyone who has had to witness the extreme pain these horses go through. I say Bute the heck out of her until you can get the founder under control. No one or nothing should have to endure that kind of pain with out some way to alieviate it. Keep in mind that Bute is a temporary fix, and all effort should go into getting her sound and pain free through corrective shoing, feed/hay management, and what exercise she will tolerate without pushing her. Soft, soft bedding is a must as these horses will take to laying down alot to aleviate the pain in their feet and will get "bed sores" from staying down as much as they do.
Best of luck to you Kelly. Keep us posted!
I'm so sorry to hear about your pony. My faithful friend and partner of 17 years lost a bout with founder this past spring. He was only on pasture, but with the large amount of rain that we had pushed the grass up quick, and he foundered before I could even see that there was grass out there for him to eat. He wasn't overweight, nor did he exhibit the typical crestiness that alot of founder cases show.
In any case, research, vets and farriers that I used all suggested that there was a move towards warm water soaks to increase the circulation in the feet, as its the lack of circulation that causes the laminar tissue to die. Apparently the carbohydrate overload causes the tissue to shunt off circulation to the feet and its that lack of circulation that causes blood loss to the laminar tissue which inevitably causes it to die and the result is the coffin bone rotation. Each founder case is apparently unique depending on factors such as how much feed or carbohydrates were ingested and how each horse individually reacts to that overload. Each horses' founder cycle will differ as to the severity and its ability to overcome the inflamation and subsequent tissue death. My poor guy's cycle took about 6 weeks before the laminar tissue death caused massive abcesses in his left foot which caused him to put weight on his right which was too much for the remaining laminar tissue to support and his coffin bone ended up sinking through his sole. Corrective shoing is also standard treatment for founder cases. Heartbars are most common, but there are new trends towards using a 4pt trimming method, shoing and a polymer padding used to not only support the frog (and coffin bone that resides just above it), but the entire sole resulting in the weight being distributed over the entire foot.
All in all, its a tough, horrible condition, and my heart goes out to anyone who has had to witness the extreme pain these horses go through. I say Bute the heck out of her until you can get the founder under control. No one or nothing should have to endure that kind of pain with out some way to alieviate it. Keep in mind that Bute is a temporary fix, and all effort should go into getting her sound and pain free through corrective shoing, feed/hay management, and what exercise she will tolerate without pushing her. Soft, soft bedding is a must as these horses will take to laying down alot to aleviate the pain in their feet and will get "bed sores" from staying down as much as they do.
Best of luck to you Kelly. Keep us posted!
