Calving Crisis

[Pine Creek Ranch]

Hi everyone,

I know there are some very intelligent people on here so I am hoping for some help with a very frustrating problem. We just started calving this season and are having a bunch of calves that can't figure out how to drink from their mother. Here is the background: The cow herd is a small operation, 40 pair, 20 of those being black baldies and 20 being simmentals, we are breeding them to Murray Grey bulls. Last year we had this problem to a smaller degree (15 of the 40 had to be taught how to drink) and the year before that didn't see much of a problem at all, although it was a very mild winter.

This year, we bought 4 pregnant purebred Murray Grey heifers, and 2 of them have already calved. Everything was textbook, babies up and drinking within minutes. Then our herd started calving and out of the first 12, 10 calves have not been able to figure out how to drink from their mothers. Clearly much more than last year, and last year was a crisis. The 2 calves that did figure it out were perfect, up and suckling within minutes. The others, (we have waited between 4 to 18 hours to see what would happen) are totally normal except for the fact that they never get on the teat unless i put them on. Most will then go to sucking but 2 have not even really had a very good sucking reflex, we have tubed them for a day or so and they gradually come out of it. These calves are not dummy calves like one would think, they are vibrant, get up quickly, and are very active. And once I teach them how to drink they are fine, it usually only takes a day or two and then they never look back. So why can't they figure this out on their own? Most of the cows have good udders, although a couple don't and I know that could be a problem. The births have all been perfect, no hard births yet this year, and a lot of the cows that are having problem calves are cows that had perfect calves last year.

After last year we were worried about a possible bull problem, so we switched out the 2 Murray Greys we had with 2 new Murray Greys, one of which is a mature, proven bull with no problem calves. So far most of the problem calves this year have been from him.

Our cows are in good body condition, and get plenty of exercise through the winter. We fed high quality hay this winter, (not very good hay last winter) and supplemented with Sweetlix molasses protein blocks and trace mineralized salt blocks. The calves get 4cc's of Bo-Se at birth. Are we going wrong somewhere?

We do have lupine in the pastures these cows are in for the summers, but have not seen any crooked calves or anything like that. Maybe they are just grazing it to a small degree and this is the result? Anyway, we are just up in arms about this, it is very exhausting and frustrating, but after a few days work with each calf they are fine. That was the case last year as well. We have not lost any, but on advice from our local vet are considering just letting one go and seeing what happens. When it dies we will take it to either the vet or Utah State University to be diagnosed. I hate to do that because I know we can save them, but I need to know what the problem is so we don't have a repeat next year.

Any advice from you guys (and gals) would be greatly appreciated.

 

[mitchwi]

...and trace mineralized salt blocks...

This would be my first guess. Animals are not getting enough of "something". That would be why perhaps the 2 purchased MG's calves did fine. They have not been around long enough on your regime to perhaps become deficient in whatever is potentially causing the problem.

Maybe make the switch to loose mineral designed for your specific region. As far as letting a calf potentially starve, that could be saved? I wouldn't do that. I would wonder perhaps if blood could be drawn from a calf with the initial symptons that could be tested instead.

These are only guesses on my part, and hopefully someone from your neck of the woods will chime in that may be more helpful.

Good luck!

Michele

 

[Campground Cattle]

...and trace mineralized salt blocks...

This would be my first guess. Animals are not getting enough of "something". That would be why perhaps the 2 purchased MG's calves did fine. They have not been around long enough on your regime to perhaps become deficient in whatever is potentially causing the problem.

Maybe make the switch to loose mineral designed for your specific region. As far as letting a calf potentially starve, that could be saved? I wouldn't do that. I would wonder perhaps if blood could be drawn from a calf with the initial symptons that could be tested instead.

These are only guesses on my part, and hopefully someone from your neck of the woods will chime in that may be more helpful.

Good luck!

Michele

Sounds like nitrate posioning.

 

[hillsdown]

Sounds like nitrate posioning.[/quote]

Why would you think nitrate poisoning what are the symptoms?

 

[Pine Creek Ranch]

"That would be why perhaps the 2 purchased MG's calves did fine. They have not been around long enough on your regime to perhaps become deficient in whatever is potentially causing the problem."


This is what I was thinking. I am interested in seeing if the other 2 purchased Murray Greys do fine, which I'm sure they will because the ranch I purchased them from hasn't had any problems. They don't look to be very close to calving, however, but I hope they surprise me.

Tell me more about this nitrate poisoning.

 

[Beefy]

a lot of dumb suckers all at once can also result from BVD.

 

[Pine Creek Ranch]

a lot of dumb suckers all at once can also result from BVD.

We have thought of the BVD thing, but have questioned it because the calves are so normal and do so well after we get them to find the teat on their own. Most of these calves suck just fine, and will suck a bottle easily, but just can't seem to find their mothers teat. But some of them do have sucking issues as well, you're right.

We live 45 minutes from the nearest vet clinic, but are trying to schedule a vet to come out and test some of these calves. Can they tell from the blood if we have BVD? I don't know much about BVD but it doesn't seem to fit real well with what is going on with this herd. One way or another, we HAVE to find out before we do another season with this type of problem.

We do have really harsh winters here, and although it is fairly nice right now, (30 to 40 degrees Farenheight daytime, 15 to 25 nighttime) we did go through a really cold spell back in January and early February that never got above zero for 3 weeks or so, but I fed more hay accordingly so I didn't think it would affect them. Could that be part of the issue, if so do you think I will see some improvements as the calving gets farther away from that date, or am I doomed to a 10% normal calving year?

 

[rmcva]

Ill bet the calves just arent getting enough minerals in them while in the womb, probably lacking in selinium, vitamin, a, e, d, b-12. This is causing them to be dumby calves. When are people going to realize that mineralized trace mineral blocks just wont cut it? Switch to better loose minerals. This will probably fix your trouble.

Amen to that. The right mineral for cows is like Lime is to soil. It can cure problems you didn't know you had, until you see the difference. Haven't had a salt block here in 22 years and there won't be any if I have to buy them.

 

[Beefy]

i dont know much about BVD either besides what my vet had told me one time. he said if i was having a lot of dumb suckers/ weak calves born right close together that it could be the result of one of more cows in the herd having BVD and that they would shed it for a time and that the gestated calves would have gotten it then . He said that if that was the case there would be a lot born like that at one time and then it would stop. However Persistantly Infected calves shed it all the time (i think) so that would be a different story. I think the vet can test for BVD with a blood sample.

Hopefully it is just a mineral deficiency though. *fingers crossed*

 

[Pine Creek Ranch]

Ill bet the calves just arent getting enough minerals in them while in the womb, probably lacking in selinium, vitamin, a, e, d, b-12. This is causing them to be dumby calves. When are people going to realize that mineralized trace mineral blocks just wont cut it? Switch to better loose minerals. This will probably fix your trouble.

Amen to that. The right mineral for cows is like Lime is to soil. It can cure problems you didn't know you had, until you see the difference. Haven't had a salt block here in 22 years and there won't be any if I have to buy them.

Maybe you're right, because it seems that some of these calves are just right on the cusp of being normal. I just had one this morning and I watched it all day and it never did drink so I put the mother in the chute and put the calf on her teat and after about 10 seconds he started sucking and then got all wound up about it. So I took him off and turned the mother loose and he is sucking on his own like he always knew how. But I know almost for sure that if I would have left him and never put him on he never would have figured it out. It seems that most of them are this way, with a couple normal ones and a couple that didn't know how to suck at all. What mineral could be responsible for this? I am ditching the salt blocks for something better, what do you all think about liquid supplements like Loomix? Do they get all the right minerals out of that? It seems they can take it in a lot better than standing around licking a solid block. I'm ready to try anything.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Ill bet the calves just arent getting enough minerals in them while in the womb, probably lacking in selinium, vitamin, a, e, d, b-12. This is causing them to be dumby calves. When are people going to realize that mineralized trace mineral blocks just wont cut it? Switch to better loose minerals. This will probably fix your trouble.

Amen to that. The right mineral for cows is like Lime is to soil. It can cure problems you didn't know you had, until you see the difference. Haven't had a salt block here in 22 years and there won't be any if I have to buy them.

Maybe you're right, because it seems that some of these calves are just right on the cusp of being normal. I just had one this morning and I watched it all day and it never did drink so I put the mother in the chute and put the calf on her teat and after about 10 seconds he started sucking and then got all wound up about it. So I took him off and turned the mother loose and he is sucking on his own like he always knew how. But I know almost for sure that if I would have left him and never put him on he never would have figured it out. It seems that most of them are this way, with a couple normal ones and a couple that didn't know how to suck at all. What mineral could be responsible for this? I am ditching the salt blocks for something better, what do you all think about liquid supplements like Loomix? Do they get all the right minerals out of that? It seems they can take it in a lot better than standing around licking a solid block. I'm ready to try anything.

What were you feeding the cows I have seen a crop of dummies.

 

[Pine Creek Ranch]

Ill bet the calves just arent getting enough minerals in them while in the womb, probably lacking in selinium, vitamin, a, e, d, b-12. This is causing them to be dumby calves. When are people going to realize that mineralized trace mineral blocks just wont cut it? Switch to better loose minerals. This will probably fix your trouble.

Amen to that. The right mineral for cows is like Lime is to soil. It can cure problems you didn't know you had, until you see the difference. Haven't had a salt block here in 22 years and there won't be any if I have to buy them.

Maybe you're right, because it seems that some of these calves are just right on the cusp of being normal. I just had one this morning and I watched it all day and it never did drink so I put the mother in the chute and put the calf on her teat and after about 10 seconds he started sucking and then got all wound up about it. So I took him off and turned the mother loose and he is sucking on his own like he always knew how. But I know almost for sure that if I would have left him and never put him on he never would have figured it out. It seems that most of them are this way, with a couple normal ones and a couple that didn't know how to suck at all. What mineral could be responsible for this? I am ditching the salt blocks for something better, what do you all think about liquid supplements like Loomix? Do they get all the right minerals out of that? It seems they can take it in a lot better than standing around licking a solid block. I'm ready to try anything.

What were you feeding the cows I have seen a crop of dummies.

We fed straight alfalfa hay all winter, no grass mixed in it, and it is really high quality stuff, no mold or anything. If anything it is too good of hay. Last winter we fed some lower quality alfalfa hay with some mold, and some oat hay, and we wondered if that was the problem so we made sure to feed only the best stuff this winter, but now our problem is worse.

 

[dun]

I tend to lean towards the mineral deficiency angle. If you have a good LA vet, ask what brand of minerals he /she recommends for your area. If that isn;t a possibility, check with a feed store that's run by someone that actually runs cattle on their own and use the stuff they use. That said, generally any of the minerals being sold in a given area that is manufactured by one of the major/reputable manufacturers will be apporpriate. Loose minerals, not the useless blocks.

dun

 

[Caustic Burno]

http://cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_b/b-807.html

I know I had the wife and several neighbors helping me bottle a lot of calves one year.
Was able to get most back on the cow, it was a real storm that had me stumped as I had had one show up every now in then that year it was 13 or 14.

I think I would follow Dun's advice as well as get your feed tested it is a cheap way to rule out a source.

 

[rmcva]

Ill bet the calves just arent getting enough minerals in them while in the womb, probably lacking in selinium, vitamin, a, e, d, b-12. This is causing them to be dumby calves. When are people going to realize that mineralized trace mineral blocks just wont cut it? Switch to better loose minerals. This will probably fix your trouble.

Amen to that. The right mineral for cows is like Lime is to soil. It can cure problems you didn't know you had, until you see the difference. Haven't had a salt block here in 22 years and there won't be any if I have to buy them.

Maybe you're right, because it seems that some of these calves are just right on the cusp of being normal. I just had one this morning and I watched it all day and it never did drink so I put the mother in the chute and put the calf on her teat and after about 10 seconds he started sucking and then got all wound up about it. So I took him off and turned the mother loose and he is sucking on his own like he always knew how. But I know almost for sure that if I would have left him and never put him on he never would have figured it out. It seems that most of them are this way, with a couple normal ones and a couple that didn't know how to suck at all. What mineral could be responsible for this? I am ditching the salt blocks for something better, what do you all think about liquid supplements like Loomix? Do they get all the right minerals out of that? It seems they can take it in a lot better than standing around licking a solid block. I'm ready to try anything.

What were you feeding the cows I have seen a crop of dummies.

We fed straight alfalfa hay all winter, no grass mixed in it, and it is really high quality stuff, no mold or anything. If anything it is too good of hay. Last winter we fed some lower quality alfalfa hay with some mold, and some oat hay, and we wondered if that was the problem so we made sure to feed only the best stuff this winter, but now our problem is worse.

Just thought of a question for you. Are these calves tall/long legs? I wouldn't think so being sired by MG. I'm also crossing with MG.

I had a bull out of King Grazer some years back. Calves legs were so long the calves had problems getting the milk. Their heads were higher than the teats. So tall they had to hold their legs out in front and spread apart and still had to bend their necks down to latch on to a teat. It was tough for them to get the first milk. Took a while being new born. Even had a few I had to bottle to get them strong enough to learn what to do. But again I wouldn't think that would be a problem with the MG bulls being used. I'm crossing Charolais and a few black angus and all the calves have to reach up a little now. Last year had 100% calf crop and didn't have any problems.

On the mineral. I use a mineral that was put together for this area. Although I'm in Va. the mineral was built on soil samples and blood test from cattle in the Piedmont of NC. Our conditions are pretty much the same here and am just over the state line. NC. State ext. worked with the Pearson co. cattlemens association to put this mineral together. I've been useing it since 99. It's cheaper than any mineral I can find at any farm store too. After I started useing it the cows started to shed hair better in the spring, breeding issues straightened out and don't hear bone joints poping when they walk. I buy by the ton and use about 2,600 pounds per year on 42 cows. Do some research in your area. Find out what others use. Ask if test have been done in your area. Va. and NC. ext. have put a lot of time and effort in helping us here.

Can't sit here and tell you what kind of mineral to use. We use Fescue for grazing and haying. So we use high mag. You may not need that in your area. If you go to free choice just remember to treat it like drinking water. Never let the cows run out of mineral. You wouldn't let them run out of water so treat the mineral the same.

 

[rmcva]

Feel free to disagree. I failed to type that the cows were smaller frame and were lower to the ground than my Charolais cows. Never had a problem with calves on Charolais cows. Just Black Angus and some crosses. Calves looked like race horses when they came out of the cow.

 

[Putangitangi]

This is a bit off the topic, but as you're discussing them, could someone point me in the direction of any post which describes the loose mineral mix, or tell me about it - I realise the mix is different in different places, but what is the nature of whatever is in it and how do you feed it out? Here we still use block licks, since the greatest need is for sodium.

 

[Pine Creek Ranch]

It seems the Murray Grey cross brings them down a bit closer to the ground. We have had a couple long legged ones but for the most part they are not too tall. The averages have been around 80 to 85 pound birthweights, at least according to the hoof weight tape, with a couple in the 70's and a couple in the 90's. We do have a few cows with large bags too, and I know that can't help, but that is definitely not the original issue. I am starting to think that at some point this winter when it was mighty cold the cows weren't getting enough good mineral into their systems. At least that seems to be the general consensus. Now my next question, if I got good loose mineral in front of them today, would that help with the cows that haven't calved yet, like the ones in April? Or am I doomed with this problem for the whole calving season? I am investigating different mineral supplements as we speak, and will get something better in front of them immediately.

One more question, just had a first time heifer calve last night and she hopped up and wandered out of the shed like she had no idea she had just calved. Waited for her to lose her afterbirth and when she did nothing changed. Put them in a stall together and she acts annoyed by the calf, if it starts to root around on her she pushes it away. Put her in the chute and put the baby on her and she didn't kick at it, in fact let it drink but she hardly has any milk. And this is over 12 hours after she gave birth. She won't let it drink when she's not in the chute. Any ideas?

 

[bigbull338]

It seems the Murray Grey cross brings them down a bit closer to the ground. We have had a couple long legged ones but for the most part they are not too tall. The averages have been around 80 to 85 pound birthweights, at least according to the hoof weight tape, with a couple in the 70's and a couple in the 90's. We do have a few cows with large bags too, and I know that can't help, but that is definitely not the original issue. I am starting to think that at some point this winter when it was mighty cold the cows weren't getting enough good mineral into their systems. At least that seems to be the general consensus. Now my next question, if I got good loose mineral in front of them today, would that help with the cows that haven't calved yet, like the ones in April? Or am I doomed with this problem for the whole calving season? I am investigating different mineral supplements as we speak, and will get something better in front of them immediately.

One more question, just had a first time heifer calve last night and she hopped up and wandered out of the shed like she had no idea she had just calved. Waited for her to lose her afterbirth and when she did nothing changed. Put them in a stall together and she acts annoyed by the calf, if it starts to root around on her she pushes it away. Put her in the chute and put the baby on her and she didn't kick at it, in fact let it drink but she hardly has any milk. And this is over 12 hours after she gave birth. She won't let it drink when she's not in the chute. Any ideas?

well she just had her calf an walked away.that means that her mothering instinks havent kicked in yet.your doing all you can do to get them to bond.by putting her in the chute an letting the calf suck.keep doing that maybe she will catch on.if not you got a calf youll have to bottle raise.maybe she will take next yrs calf who knows.

 

[Putangitangi]

Thanks for the label info and picture!