chippie
Well-known member
Sir Loin,
did you notice that she bought him in October?
did you notice that she bought him in October?
calf down, need help
- Thread starter candeejocox
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Chippie,
Re:
Have I got it correct?
SL
Bought in October
First illness: "did very well for two months. ( Dec 1 ) "then a month ago" "unstable and wobbly" (That would also be around Dec 1."
Made 1 day recovery
30 days good health
anyways it had been about a month, of good normal health (from Jan.1 )
Second illness: "new years eve" "he went down"
Jan 6 still down.
To me that's two episodes in 90 days with the time in between being a healthy holding time from administration of a potent broad spectrum antibiotic cocktail, with possibly a B12 shot .
Now if you accept as fact that he was already inflicted when bought, that makes 3 episodes in 90 days, and if the breeder treated him to get him to walk into the ring, that makes 4 episodes.
With a history like, I don't expect him to recover.
Two things that I suspect is a botched banding at birth causing an abdominal infection.
Or a damaged umbilical cord caused by being pulled at birth also causing abdominal infection.
Both of which would cause a rotten gut smell in the stool, especially with high and prolonged administration of antibiotics.
And rotting guts will cause malnutrition and malnutrition will cause "unstable and wobbly" and a downer who can't get up and can't recover no matter what or how much antibiotics you give him.
Just some more food for thought.
SL
Re:
Yes, Here is the timeline I have.
Have I got it correct?
SL
Bought in October
First illness: "did very well for two months. ( Dec 1 ) "then a month ago" "unstable and wobbly" (That would also be around Dec 1."
Made 1 day recovery
30 days good health
anyways it had been about a month, of good normal health (from Jan.1 )
Second illness: "new years eve" "he went down"
Jan 6 still down.
To me that's two episodes in 90 days with the time in between being a healthy holding time from administration of a potent broad spectrum antibiotic cocktail, with possibly a B12 shot .
Now if you accept as fact that he was already inflicted when bought, that makes 3 episodes in 90 days, and if the breeder treated him to get him to walk into the ring, that makes 4 episodes.
With a history like, I don't expect him to recover.
Two things that I suspect is a botched banding at birth causing an abdominal infection.
Or a damaged umbilical cord caused by being pulled at birth also causing abdominal infection.
Both of which would cause a rotten gut smell in the stool, especially with high and prolonged administration of antibiotics.
And rotting guts will cause malnutrition and malnutrition will cause "unstable and wobbly" and a downer who can't get up and can't recover no matter what or how much antibiotics you give him.
Just some more food for thought.
SL
chippie
Well-known member
Actually breeding a dairy cow to an Angus is pretty common. The calves are sold as bottle calves and if they are mostly black, they will bring more at the auction than an obvious black and white calf, just because of the Angus half.
You can buy the Angus/Holstein cross calves at some dairies too. As far as being valuable, that is a moot point. No one would want one as a herd sire. At least around here.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
SirLoin strikes again!
What a crock.
Many dairymen breed their heifers to Angus. Their bull calves are NEVER worth anything. They are "throw-aways" to a dairymen. Yes, they get sold & make some income from them - but all they WANT are heifers. That's why most of the big farms are using sexed semen.
I'm pretty sure the OP would know the difference between a day old calf & a 2-3 month old calf.
WHY am I even answering your comments. Surely noone will pay attention to them.
What a crock.
Many dairymen breed their heifers to Angus. Their bull calves are NEVER worth anything. They are "throw-aways" to a dairymen. Yes, they get sold & make some income from them - but all they WANT are heifers. That's why most of the big farms are using sexed semen.
I'm pretty sure the OP would know the difference between a day old calf & a 2-3 month old calf.
WHY am I even answering your comments. Surely noone will pay attention to them.
candeejocox
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Calf is still the same.
I bought him at toppenish sale. They did not have a truck load of bottle babies like they do on Saturdays bc I went on a Thursday to a feeder calf sale. He was a solo calf , no others with him or like him sold. He is all black minus a star on his head. He was already bottle fed bc he came running when he saw my bottle on day one. I believe he came from a private person bc of this.
Nonetheless, he has no health issues for nearly three months minus one day. He is still alert and eating well. He was very bloated Last night. He was on his side legs flaying and wluld not let md sor him up, Acted as if he was having vet hard timf breathing, I thought he would die throughout night. His stomach was very tight so I had to stick him w scalpel and expel the gas. He deflated nicely and half way sat up right after. I still expected him to die last night. To my surprise he was laying upright and ate well again tiday. Alert and same as he's been all week.
He's always been rather round. MAkes me think maybe I overlooked his pot belly holstien look, for bloating issues. So besides last nights bloat, still eating well. Alert. He is still getting probios twice a day and digestamce paste for energy and vitamins. I've already put this much into him I will continue w him until he gives up.
The rest of the herd seems healthy
I bought him at toppenish sale. They did not have a truck load of bottle babies like they do on Saturdays bc I went on a Thursday to a feeder calf sale. He was a solo calf , no others with him or like him sold. He is all black minus a star on his head. He was already bottle fed bc he came running when he saw my bottle on day one. I believe he came from a private person bc of this.
Nonetheless, he has no health issues for nearly three months minus one day. He is still alert and eating well. He was very bloated Last night. He was on his side legs flaying and wluld not let md sor him up, Acted as if he was having vet hard timf breathing, I thought he would die throughout night. His stomach was very tight so I had to stick him w scalpel and expel the gas. He deflated nicely and half way sat up right after. I still expected him to die last night. To my surprise he was laying upright and ate well again tiday. Alert and same as he's been all week.
He's always been rather round. MAkes me think maybe I overlooked his pot belly holstien look, for bloating issues. So besides last nights bloat, still eating well. Alert. He is still getting probios twice a day and digestamce paste for energy and vitamins. I've already put this much into him I will continue w him until he gives up.
The rest of the herd seems healthy
Jeanne,
Re:
'Many dairymen breed their heifers to Angus.'
That is true! And I have sold them many angus bulls to do the job prior to the onset of AI ing.
Re:
Holstein angus crosses at market value are worth right around 80 -85% of an angus bull or steer.
Re:
That was true some 20 years ago when they breed for only replacement milking heifers. Today dairymen are more diversified enabling them to capitalize on both the milk and beef market by breeding for both unwanted heifers that were only produced just to turn momma's lactation back on and bull caves to be castrated and sold as steers.
If all they wanted were heifers for replacement they would not be using an angus bull.
Re:
By crossing a Holstein, which is burger quality beef, with an angus, which is a prime quality beef , you end up with a choice quality beef which is much more in demand/marketable at a higher price.
Do you not remember the big fight between dairyman and beef producers a few years back because cattleman felt dairyman were horning in on their market by cross breeding?
But that's not the issue here, diagnosing this sick calf is! Please try to stay on subject.
SL
PS: How about an attitude adjustment or you may just reap what you sow.
Re:
'Many dairymen breed their heifers to Angus.'
That is true! And I have sold them many angus bulls to do the job prior to the onset of AI ing.
Re:
Wrong, absolutely WRONG!
Holstein angus crosses at market value are worth right around 80 -85% of an angus bull or steer.
Re:
WRONG AGAIN!
That was true some 20 years ago when they breed for only replacement milking heifers. Today dairymen are more diversified enabling them to capitalize on both the milk and beef market by breeding for both unwanted heifers that were only produced just to turn momma's lactation back on and bull caves to be castrated and sold as steers.
If all they wanted were heifers for replacement they would not be using an angus bull.
Re:
True, but they are breeding for only replacement heifers. ( milk producers ) not the beef industry.
By crossing a Holstein, which is burger quality beef, with an angus, which is a prime quality beef , you end up with a choice quality beef which is much more in demand/marketable at a higher price.
Do you not remember the big fight between dairyman and beef producers a few years back because cattleman felt dairyman were horning in on their market by cross breeding?
But that's not the issue here, diagnosing this sick calf is! Please try to stay on subject.
SL
PS: How about an attitude adjustment or you may just reap what you sow.
candeejocox
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Also, he is a steer..
candeejocox
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Just for fun, here is a goofy video of him from October or November..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJC9xOCBBx8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJC9xOCBBx8
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Hmmm - Tn? how many dairies are in that state - compared to - oh yes - New York - 3rd largest dairy state in US.
candeejocox - sorry that little guy isn't coming around for you. I know it's a pain - but have you been able to get some BoSe?
candeejocox - sorry that little guy isn't coming around for you. I know it's a pain - but have you been able to get some BoSe?
candeejocox
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Sellinium? No. I'm worried I would overdose him. He has been eating alot of his loose mineral every day, plus his paste "digestamace" has 1 mcg of sellinium in it a dose and he's getting that twice a day. I believe that medicated milk has it also? He really has been goobelin down the mineral loose by himself. Also someone recommended I give him a triple dose of that paste so he got a bunch tonight. Worth a shot. If I make if to feed store tomorow I can get some tho
Kathie in Thorp
Well-known member
Candee, call Paula DVM at Thorp -- ask her. I've already PM'd you. If you are using a pro-bios type paste, you cannot over-do with that, especially if he's been on heavy antibiotics. But you can over-do selenium.
Candee,
Re:
It's sounding more and more like peritonitis to me.
That is when bacteria enters the abdomen cavity and infects all organs from the outside.
The hard time breathing is from the bloat produced by the infection which causes the pleural wall to be pushed up into the pleural cavity which restricts breathing.
Check both his navel and scrotum for signs of infection.
Has he been banded or cut?
As for treatment:
I would hit him with a heave dose of penicillin as I believe we are dealing with a bacterial infection.
I would give him 10 CC SQ and 20 CC in his abdomen being careful not to inject it too deep to avoid injecting it into any organs. You want it in the abdomen cavity, not any of the organs there in.
I would keep him on 10 CC SQ per day for at least one week and see if there is any improvement.
SL
Re:
It's sounding more and more like peritonitis to me.
That is when bacteria enters the abdomen cavity and infects all organs from the outside.
The hard time breathing is from the bloat produced by the infection which causes the pleural wall to be pushed up into the pleural cavity which restricts breathing.
Check both his navel and scrotum for signs of infection.
Has he been banded or cut?
As for treatment:
I would hit him with a heave dose of penicillin as I believe we are dealing with a bacterial infection.
I would give him 10 CC SQ and 20 CC in his abdomen being careful not to inject it too deep to avoid injecting it into any organs. You want it in the abdomen cavity, not any of the organs there in.
I would keep him on 10 CC SQ per day for at least one week and see if there is any improvement.
SL
chippie
Well-known member
You can overdo probios. It can cause gas and bloating (at least in people.) I had that unpleasant experience. :/
I would think that twice a day is a bit much. When I have used it for cattle and calves, I would repeat at 3 to 5 day intervals if needed.
ETA: Just saw the video. He is a cute little guy. I hope he makes it.
I would think that twice a day is a bit much. When I have used it for cattle and calves, I would repeat at 3 to 5 day intervals if needed.
ETA: Just saw the video. He is a cute little guy. I hope he makes it.
glacierridge
Well-known member
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3n3xz8de said:
Yup, I know quite a few dairy folks, they like the calving ease that beef bulls can offer on their heifers and *most* of the time a beef cross calf will fetch them a better price than a straight Holstein bull calf since dairy calves, while making quite tasty meat, take so LOOOOONG to be slaughter ready.
And I've seen quite a few farmers retain their half blood females, they usually have better temperaments than current Holsteins (they have gotten really nasty mean over the last few years!!)
and what they don't have in volume they usually can make up for in richer milk quality and I think lower SCC too. I know the Fleckvieh breed is gaining popularity along with other dual purpose breeds because they have some of these good advantages.
Sounds like the little guy isn't ready to check out yet, I hope that he will pull through and get back on track. Sounds like he was doing pretty well with the one exception before this.
Candee,
I have reviewed your video and can see no signs of any problems what so ever that could be associated with a pre-purchase condition. I don't thing you could ask for a healthier looking calf.
How you bought this little guy for $5 is beyond all comprehension, unless of course you are one terrific piece of eye candy. But don't tell your hubby I said that!
Therefore, I now feel there is only about a 10% chance his condition is pre-purchase related.
With that in mind, IMO what happen to this little guy most likely happened after purchase.
The only other thing of interest in your video is that it appears you are pasturing him, as a orphaned un-weaned calf with mature cows. Correct me if I am not seeing a fence between them.
This is dangerous as he has no momma of his own to suckle he may have attempted to suckle another cow and got kicked/head butted and injured.
This could injure any number of vital organs resulting in inflammation and infection of the abdominal cavity.
IMO you may be dealing with an injury as the cause of the infection.
And as he has been down for a week now I would start a physical therapy program with him in addition to rolling him over daily.
Just a little more food for thought for our local wolf pack.
SL
I have reviewed your video and can see no signs of any problems what so ever that could be associated with a pre-purchase condition. I don't thing you could ask for a healthier looking calf.
How you bought this little guy for $5 is beyond all comprehension, unless of course you are one terrific piece of eye candy. But don't tell your hubby I said that!
Therefore, I now feel there is only about a 10% chance his condition is pre-purchase related.
With that in mind, IMO what happen to this little guy most likely happened after purchase.
The only other thing of interest in your video is that it appears you are pasturing him, as a orphaned un-weaned calf with mature cows. Correct me if I am not seeing a fence between them.
This is dangerous as he has no momma of his own to suckle he may have attempted to suckle another cow and got kicked/head butted and injured.
This could injure any number of vital organs resulting in inflammation and infection of the abdominal cavity.
IMO you may be dealing with an injury as the cause of the infection.
And as he has been down for a week now I would start a physical therapy program with him in addition to rolling him over daily.
Just a little more food for thought for our local wolf pack.
SL
candeejocox
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yeah his little feeder calf group stayed away from the cow calf cattle pretty well. i never saw them have any problems. the lease cattle were moved in november i believe. so its been two months since hes been in the pasture. he was happy and content in his pen for atleast a month or two prior to getting sick. i think he seems better today, more assertive when pushing away if i offer him to much water or rotate him. im taking that as a good sign. trying to be optomistic i guess.
i think he was only 5 dollars bc its a very small sale and the people there were not the crowd that wants the bottle babies, they normally got through on a diff day. there prob was a crowd of 10 people. He was much skinnier when i got him, that may have soemthing to do with it to? i dono. no one wanted to but milk replacer i guess?
im still hopefull. he is sticking with his currient gels and feed, maybe all the antibiotics cleaned his stomach out too well and we just gotta build back up his bacteria ect and strenght?
At this point i wont be surprised if he does die. i still dont understand why he didnt recover and stand a week ago, since he has had everything possible given to him.
i dont think its injury related, bc he was very SICK the first day or two, snot, scours, coughing,acting half dead alertness wise, but that all cleared up. so maybe he had a few things going on.
i think he was only 5 dollars bc its a very small sale and the people there were not the crowd that wants the bottle babies, they normally got through on a diff day. there prob was a crowd of 10 people. He was much skinnier when i got him, that may have soemthing to do with it to? i dono. no one wanted to but milk replacer i guess?
im still hopefull. he is sticking with his currient gels and feed, maybe all the antibiotics cleaned his stomach out too well and we just gotta build back up his bacteria ect and strenght?
At this point i wont be surprised if he does die. i still dont understand why he didnt recover and stand a week ago, since he has had everything possible given to him.
i dont think its injury related, bc he was very SICK the first day or two, snot, scours, coughing,acting half dead alertness wise, but that all cleared up. so maybe he had a few things going on.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Hang in there - he's not dead yet, and stranger things have happened. He's lucky to have suck a good "mom".
Kathie in Thorp
Well-known member
I agree, Jeanne! I'd like to just put a little plug in here for Candee . . . . I think she was one who jumped in and helped when we were going through the fires here.Jeanne - Simme Valley":hujem5xv said:
For what its worth, I haven't had bottle calves in too long, but I kept my babies in the cow/calf herd once they had survived quarantine. It was so much healthier for them than being penned, it kept me from having to construct another penned area and it gave them a chance to learn cow/calf social behaviors and whatever else they learn from each other. I just saw it as a win/win situation. I would bring their bottles to the pasture and call just like you did. I never had a cow hurt one of my bottle calves ~ not to say that it could not happen, but they are just as likely to hurt a herd calf. I never saw my bottle babies attempting to steal milk from a cow. Maybe having only had the bottle they didn't consider the cow as a source of milk, I don't know. I know if dun has a bottle calf he has done the same thing.
I hope we didn't lose Candee.
It sure would be nice to know the outcome.
Has he expired or still hanging in there? Or did you put him down?
If he is still with us I sure would like to see some pics or video ' particularly of his eyes and body condition.
SL
It sure would be nice to know the outcome.
Has he expired or still hanging in there? Or did you put him down?
If he is still with us I sure would like to see some pics or video ' particularly of his eyes and body condition.
SL
