BW question
- Thread starter KANSAS
- Start date
KANSAS":3nufony4 said:
The breed association often has it in their sire summary. I use the ABS catalog, too. They have it for most of the breeds they're selling.
But it's not above or below the average for the breed. Each breed assn has their own EPDs. The Angus Assn used all the BW, WW and YW reported in 1976 (or '77) to start EPDs at 0. So a BW EPD of 2 is 2 above zero, not breed average which is currently 2.3. Breed average changes every time a sire summary is run, but 0 stays at 0.
bufordall
Well-known member
Yea Frankie is right it is sort of like on a floating scale, most breed assoc. will adjust there numbers period. to keep up with the averages. But zero is always zero with numbers being above or below in relation to sire and dam.
So the difference in bw between a -2 and a 2 is 4? Is that four pounds? if so thats not very much. When I see people advertise their heifer bull as having a negative and their herdsire having a positive there may only be a couple of points seperating. Please expand....
SEC
Well-known member
That' is the funky thing about bw epd's is you can go from heifer bull deluxe to cow killer in 6 lbs. In real life, 6 lbs don't make the difference.
I usually consider bulls under 3 Bwt EPd for myself, if I am selling them they should be around 2 or under. I have used Hyline Right Way on heifers and would do it again in a heart beat and he's a 5.4 on bwt.
Lots of guys will use Yellowstone on heifers as well and they calve just fine.
So who is right or wrong?
I usually consider bulls under 3 Bwt EPd for myself, if I am selling them they should be around 2 or under. I have used Hyline Right Way on heifers and would do it again in a heart beat and he's a 5.4 on bwt.
Lots of guys will use Yellowstone on heifers as well and they calve just fine.
So who is right or wrong?
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OK, what I want to know is this.
Assume we have an average epd bw of 5 on our Reg. Hereford cow herd. Our actual birthweights run in the high 70s.
Who will throw the smallest average calf on those cows?
1. Reg Hereford bull with bw epd of 3 with actual bw 85
2. Reg Hereford Bull with bw epd of 5 with actual bw 78
Assume we have an average epd bw of 5 on our Reg. Hereford cow herd. Our actual birthweights run in the high 70s.
Who will throw the smallest average calf on those cows?
1. Reg Hereford bull with bw epd of 3 with actual bw 85
2. Reg Hereford Bull with bw epd of 5 with actual bw 78
Chris H":212cckw5 said:
That's where EPDs (I know, I used the dreaded EPD term) enter into the picture. Actaul BW of a bull doesn;t really mean all that much to me since I don;t know if the dam was over or under fed before she calved or if the bull was 2 weeks early or 2 weeks late.
dun
The Angus Assn recommends using a bull with a BW EPD of less than three on first calf heifers. I've always assumed that was Angus heifers, not cross bred heifers. We generally follow that guideline and have very very few calving problems.
At our bull test station, we "flag" bulls with a BW EPD of 2.5 or less as safe to use on heifers. But the AVERAGE BW EPD of the breed today is less than that.
I see people discounting bulls that have a 4 lb BW EPD, then turn around and buy one with a 3.5 EPD. I can't explain it, but a guy has to draw the line as to what he'll accept for BW somewhere. There shouldn't be that much difference. My main concern and the reason we use lower BW bulls is that commercial bull buyers tend to shy away from Angus bulls with BW EPDs of 5 or more.
If I were in your situation, I'd contact the Hereford Assn and ask them about what BW EPD they recommend using on first calf Hereford heifers.
If we're talking about cross bred commercial heifers, depending on their breed make up, I'd go with a very low BW EPD because of heterosis.
At our bull test station, we "flag" bulls with a BW EPD of 2.5 or less as safe to use on heifers. But the AVERAGE BW EPD of the breed today is less than that.
I see people discounting bulls that have a 4 lb BW EPD, then turn around and buy one with a 3.5 EPD. I can't explain it, but a guy has to draw the line as to what he'll accept for BW somewhere. There shouldn't be that much difference. My main concern and the reason we use lower BW bulls is that commercial bull buyers tend to shy away from Angus bulls with BW EPDs of 5 or more.
If I were in your situation, I'd contact the Hereford Assn and ask them about what BW EPD they recommend using on first calf Hereford heifers.
If we're talking about cross bred commercial heifers, depending on their breed make up, I'd go with a very low BW EPD because of heterosis.
Is there a scale to compare different breeds to?
i.e. a 3.5 bw for hereford is equal to a 4.5 bw for angus
2.6 bw for charolais
2.9 bw for simm
etc
etc
seems like it is impossible to tell (if you were crossbreeding) what is safe to put with what.
i.e. a 3.5 bw for hereford is equal to a 4.5 bw for angus
2.6 bw for charolais
2.9 bw for simm
etc
etc
seems like it is impossible to tell (if you were crossbreeding) what is safe to put with what.
KANSAS":ho19rzyu said:
Yes. Here's a link to the MARC chart. The thing with crossbreeding is the heterosis. I don't know of anything that can give you a reliable estimate of BW when you're breeding crossbred cattle, especially if you don't know the makeup of the crossbreeding. Maybe someone else does.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/sp2UserFiles/Pl ... 06News.pdf
Herefords.US
Well-known member
Chris H":7yvj28so said:
The American Hereford Assn. had a Hereford 101 program on the web(a webinair) that answers this question (according to them!) and other questions on EPDs.
Here is the link to the page that has access to the recorded program:
http://hereford.org/AHA/tabID__3914/tailored.aspx
Click on the arrow on the TV screen and you should first hear music.(Faded Love by Patsy Cline) then in a few seconds, Jack Ward and Dan Moser will appear in the screen and present the program.
George
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Dun - You are correct! As we read the posts on almost every Thread concerning EPD's it is glaringly evident that very few breeders can say that they understand EPD's enough to explain their functions. I would encourage EVERYONE who is even slightly interested in the subject to go on Google or Dogpile or any other Search engine and type in "EPD's" - or -"Extra Progeny Differences", COPY whichever selection of information you think you can understand so that you have a hard copy IN YOUR HAND - and READ IT AND STUDY IT!. Then read it again. Then read it again. Then you will have a vague idea of what EPD's are REALLY saying to you - and THEN you will know enough to decide whether you "BELIEVE" in them ( which is an absurd comment because it is NOT a religion!) enough to consider their value in selection of breedstock - or - whether you decide NOT to make use of EPD's. But, at least, you will know WHY you do or do not want to encorporate EPD's in your program - rather than 'throwing darts' at a picture board. You think that is far-fetched?? I saw a rancher do that one time and then bitch because his calves weren't what he had expected! I didn't waste my time trying to explain it to him.
DOC HARRIS
One thing that people fail to undeerstand about EPDs is that you are still dealing with only a 66% incidence of the calf falling within the accuracy range for the EPD no matter what the accuracy. I'm not very good at explaining this stuff but I'll give it a shot.
These are hypothetical numbers since I'm too lazy to look up the actual possible change etc. which affects it. If a BW EPD is +4 and the accuracy is .20 for arguments sake I'll say that the possbile change is 8. That means that 66% of the time the BW would be plus or minus 8 or +12 to -4. Using the same +4, if the accuracy is .90 the possible change is 2 that means that 66% of the time the BW would be +6 or +2.
In either case the other 33% of the time the weight could vary even more but I don;t know how much that would be. That probably accounts for the 100 plus pound calves from a very low weight bull.
It's all kind of statistical. But you know theold saying, "there are liars, damnliars, and statistics".
dun
These are hypothetical numbers since I'm too lazy to look up the actual possible change etc. which affects it. If a BW EPD is +4 and the accuracy is .20 for arguments sake I'll say that the possbile change is 8. That means that 66% of the time the BW would be plus or minus 8 or +12 to -4. Using the same +4, if the accuracy is .90 the possible change is 2 that means that 66% of the time the BW would be +6 or +2.
In either case the other 33% of the time the weight could vary even more but I don;t know how much that would be. That probably accounts for the 100 plus pound calves from a very low weight bull.
It's all kind of statistical. But you know theold saying, "there are liars, damnliars, and statistics".
dun
KNERSIE":28yaqdis said:
This is from the Red Angus association and address' possible change. I can't find the documents (crash of 2004 ate a lot of stuff) that talked about the 66% deal
http://redangus.org/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=152
dun
