Bull ?

S.R.R.

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You have a bull that is a keeper. You feed him grain and everything he needs to reach full potential. He is a 2100lb bull at maturity

You take the same bull he gets no grain just hay and grass. He is 1800lb at maturity.

Now here is the question. Would his calves be any different in WW YW ect. based on each scenario?

If yes, then how and why?
If no, then why did you waste the money on grain ect. ?
 
S.R.R.":s4iga792 said:
You have a bull that is a keeper. You feed him grain and everything he needs to reach full potential. He is a 2100lb bull at maturity

You take the same bull he gets no grain just hay and grass. He is 1800lb at maturity.

Now here is the question. Would his calves be any different in WW YW ect. based on each scenario?

If yes, then how and why?
If no, then why did you waste the money on grain ect. ?

The bull's genetic make up is not changed by feeding. There should be no difference in the performance of his calves whether he's 1800 or 2100 lbs.

The time a calf spends in the feedlot is the most expensive time of it's life. Bulls with a high ADG should sire calves that will finsh quicker in the feedlot. The sooner they get through the feedlot, the sooner they'll be making money instead of costing money.
 
Eventually I hope to be a seedstock producer.

When my first pb bull got here I set a small tub of grain in front of him while the fellow I bought him from was here.

Without asking me or saying anything to me he moved the grain and said " what are you doing " ? ( In my flippin barn!! ) :lol: :lol:

Even though the bull had just come off test the breeder I bought him off said if they can't make it on hay alone get rid of em. Don't grain him, or your cows.

I had to sell him last August at 4 years of age and he came off grass pasture at just under 1900 lbs after servicing 35 cows.

It is good to see who grains cattle to see if they "meet their genetic potential", because I don't want their animals.
 
Frankie":62kp21y0 said:
S.R.R.":62kp21y0 said:
You have a bull that is a keeper. You feed him grain and everything he needs to reach full potential. He is a 2100lb bull at maturity

You take the same bull he gets no grain just hay and grass. He is 1800lb at maturity.

Now here is the question. Would his calves be any different in WW YW ect. based on each scenario?

If yes, then how and why?
If no, then why did you waste the money on grain ect. ?

The bull's genetic make up is not changed by feeding. There should be no difference in the performance of his calves whether he's 1800 or 2100 lbs.

.
I agree 100%. Why then are there people on these boards telling people with poor bulls to put the feed to them and grow them out? I can not see how this will do anything for the bulls calves and is that not what really matters in the end? Your calves is were the $ comes from.
 
SRR

I couldnt agree more on one side you have people that want to see a bull in "his working cloths" on the other "feed grain and alot of it" lol

Damned if you do and damned if you dont...

MD
 
The final size of the bull isn't going to change his genetic output. However, when you are using yearling bulls, they need to be grown out!! At least in this climate they do anyways. For heavens sake, even our replacement heifers get grain in the winter, otherwise, they wouldn't breed, and if they did, they would not be big enough to calve in the next year. Now, I am not saying that you need to lay the feed to them, but they do need to grow a bit over the winter. I don't know how big a bull has to be to be sexually mature, but I can't imagine sending a 700-800 bull out and expecting him to be able to service 1200 lb cows.

I would much rather use a 2 year old bull myself, for one they haven't had as much grain put into them, and for another they can cover more cows, but since a lot of people want to use yearlings, they are going to need to be fed up.
 
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S.R.R.":1wwk6uld said:
Frankie":1wwk6uld said:
S.R.R.":1wwk6uld said:
You have a bull that is a keeper. You feed him grain and everything he needs to reach full potential. He is a 2100lb bull at maturity

You take the same bull he gets no grain just hay and grass. He is 1800lb at maturity.

Now here is the question. Would his calves be any different in WW YW ect. based on each scenario?

If yes, then how and why?
If no, then why did you waste the money on grain ect. ?

The bull's genetic make up is not changed by feeding. There should be no difference in the performance of his calves whether he's 1800 or 2100 lbs.

.
I agree 100%. Why then are there people on these boards telling people with poor bulls to put the feed to them and grow them out? I can not see how this will do anything for the bulls calves and is that not what really matters in the end? Your calves is were the $ comes from.

I think that was a different arguement where some one was putting a young bull on cattle to soon. I agree on the grass but you can not expect a year old bull to be covering cows and get his growth potential out of him. I view as your losing money, his calfs will be the same quality but come replacement time are you selling a 1500 pound knot or a 2000 pound bull.
Thats 250 bucks at cull prices your are losing.
 
[quote

I view as your losing money, his calfs will be the same quality but come replacement time are you selling a 1500 pound knot or a 2000 pound bull.
Thats 250 bucks at cull prices your are losing.[/quote]

Well I'll give you that but. How much of that $250 did you spend getting that 1500lb bull to 2000lb? I know you would be the first to say a dollar saved is a dollar gained.
 
S.R.R.":3cphjozj said:
[quote

I view as your losing money, his calfs will be the same quality but come replacement time are you selling a 1500 pound knot or a 2000 pound bull.
Thats 250 bucks at cull prices your are losing.

Well I'll give you that but. How much of that $250 did you spend getting that 1500lb bull to 2000lb? I know you would be the first to say a dollar saved is a dollar gained.[/quote]

I am probabally not stating it well if you intend to put a yearling bull on 15 to 20 cows you better help him IMO.
I doubt if you will get that 1500 pound bull and he will be in a struggle for life again IMO when he really has to go to work.
 
Yeh I see what your saying. I guess that is the trouble with useing yearling bulls. We can't wait for them to grow big enough on their own.
 
You can't expect a yearling bull to go out and breed anything if he is underfed & too small.
I totally agree - if you are going to use yearlings, they have to be fed so that they are grown & mature enough to breed.
As far as bull tests go, I agree with them being fed to their full potential. These bulls are supposed to be the best bloodlines, and most of them go to commercial producers that need calves that will grow. By feeding a contemporary group of bulls, you can see what bulls, grow and gain or don't grow - or get fat. You don't want to buy FAT bulls, but you do want to pick out the growthy, heavy gainers.
 
I fail to see the logic (at least in my area of the world, the midwest) That cattle should not be fed grain. Corn is selling for $1.70 per bushel, wet corn gluten feed can be delivered for $25 per ton, and corn silage can be purchased and bagged for less than $30. per ton. While it is nice to fantasize about feeding only grass because it is the "Natural" thing to do, cattle can and do readily utilize concentrates well. Knowing how to properly constuct and blend a ration that balances roughage and Cheap concentrates (where available) and keeps the rumen flora happy, is a key to promoting optimal growth in cattle. Feeding low quality hay to growing cattle is fine if you want to take 3 years to develop a heifer to first calving or two years to develop a bull, but compared to corn in whatever form, good hay is not cheap, whether you bale it yourself or buy it and a lot of people don't feed good hay, and don't grow out their animals properly.
 
Please let me clarify a few things.

The bull I talked about above was a "long yearling" born in Jan the year before, and off test 2 months before so he had his share of rocket fuel before I turned him out on 18 cows ( if memory serves ) and he covered em all no prob.

But he came from a cow herd that was fed nothing but hay. Some champion cows in that herd too. ( Yes minerals etc.. ).

My brood cows, and almost everyone elses I know around here get only pasture and hay. A lot of us do intensive grazing. Not because it is "natural" ( and it is I guess ) but because it is efficient.

( Yep some of the bigger guys and dairy guys who have the equipment already will feed silage etc. but I would be leary of buying seedstock or cows from them ). And maybe I am wrong but isn't that the question asked - is it a genetic trait to do well on certain feeds? Very interesting.

I have nothing against graining certain categories or folks using other types of feed. I have gone through 11 tons of corn so far but my cows have got none ( poor old girls and they do the most work! :lol: ).

That is how it has to work around here or you can't make money on commercial beef. And KMG is right on - different areas different conditions.
 
While I agree that a bull should be fed well when he's a youngen, so that he can grow, I do not feel that this feeding affects his genetic capability one bit. If you took the same bull and just grass fed him, and out him out as a two year old - his progeny would be no different than if you force fed him grain.

The bulls genetics, and calves that he will throw, IMO, have nothing to do with if he was on a feed test or not. Having said that, if he's too small to breed adequately, he's not doing you any good either.
 
Wondering how much fertility could be affected by using a young bull that is only grass fed versus feeding them grain to help them while they are still growing. Understand the genetic part but curious if sperm count could be a lot lower?
 
aplusmnt":1ec2xxbi said:
Wondering how much fertility could be affected by using a young bull that is only grass fed versus feeding them grain to help them while they are still growing. Understand the genetic part but curious if sperm count could be a lot lower?

That is actaully a very good question.

All I can say is what we did one year during the great BSE crisis. Cattle were worthless and we had not a penny to spend on anything that we would usually buy for breeding.

We raised up one pretty good young bull that had some truly great genetics in him - fit into our program like a hand into a well worn glove. So we kept him over the winter on some decent hay, mineral and a bit of corn when I could find it for free.

This guy went to about 1300 pounds and we put him out with some cows to try him. Too many cows actually but we put him on about 30 in a field all to themselves.

We watched and we waited. Never saw him breed a single animal. I was so broke we did not even preg check - we just put them through the chute that winter - planning to sell anything I could not "punch out". Every one of them had a calf inside.

He went down quite a bit in weight and I thought about selling him, but wife said no. So being the obedient husband I penned him up and fed him exactly the same.

His growth is not what one would think - due to being ill used - but his calves are truly nice. So now he is in his last year here at 4 years of age. I figure him to weigh about 1700 or so pounds.

Hw has two youngster out in the front pen that I cannot make up my mind about. Both are potential keepers as a bull - one will stay. So the time will soon come where I am forced into a decision.

Despite all of the above rambling, there is a point to all of this background info.

Some animals - if bred to it - will do well despite all of the traditional "requirements" that folks want for a breeding bull. And some will not.

Due to financial constraints here - created by another story - I now work on the road and wife runs this place. It is vital that we have an easy calving bull and cows that can be left to their own devices. We have pretty much achieved that - minimizing the wreck potential while I am away.

I am now sold on attempting to breed a decent bull that will do well without all of the extras. It worked for us by accident once and now I would like to attempt it by design.

Bez!
 
This is a good topic. So how do you take a yearling bull that is fed grain starter pellets and free choice alfafa overconditioned to a bcs of a high 7 or higher and acclimate him to just hay and grass? I went and looked at some bulls that are going to sell this week the other day. One bull I had previously seen a couple weeks before I really liked. He go got so fat I lost all interest in him and I even told the guy so. "You go him too gol durn fat!" So, guess what I'm getting at is what bcs would be best for a yearling bull before putting him to work? Aplusmnt you have a good point. Just how does this affect sperm count??
 
buckaroo_bif":1r477vqh said:
This is a good topic. So how do you take a yearling bull that is fed grain starter pellets and free choice alfafa overconditioned to a bcs of a high 7 or higher and acclimate him to just hay and grass? I went and looked at some bulls that are going to sell this week the other day. One bull I had previously seen a couple weeks before I really liked. He go got so fat I lost all interest in him and I even told the guy so. "You go him too gol durn fat!" So, guess what I'm getting at is what bcs would be best for a yearling bull before putting him to work? Aplusmnt you have a good point. Just how does this affect sperm count??

I suspect it is possible, but I am presently of the opinion that the best way to do this is start them right off on the feed that we used here at this place.

Tradition is the big, blocky and well set up bull. And I have to admit I am partial to them. But if they are unable to live in the field they are not for this place.

Shows and show cattle tend to create a bit of a prejudice as to what an animal should look like. But as we all know, looks do not always present ability. The proof of the animal in the end is his / her progeny.

It is like the bulls that folks present here for others to look at. They may be real nice looking with all the grain in them. They may have real nice numbers from their parental epd's. But they may not be a performer.

I am now of the opinion that the only true performance that matters is what that animal does on your operation. Hence my often dismissed opinion on epd's and layers of fat.

If it works on your operation, who am I to judge?

In the end, I want a calf on the ground that weighs in around 80 - 100 pounds. Large by most folks standards. But I want cows that can handle that size. Our weather dictates the calf requires some body mass to take the first few days of cold weather without getting sick. Others will disagree but it works for us.

I want those calves to survive with just Mom to look after them.

Our last bull seemed to get the job done. He passed his medical when the veterinarian came to give him the once over. I hope to gat the two in the yard looked over and then make the decision. One of them will get about 10 girls toplay with this year.

So, once again I ramble - but the answer to body score is in your own eye and your own head. I look for animals that are NOT raised on a bunch of hot feed - because most of them - not all of them - will have a difficult time in the field.

No conversion if you start them off that way.

Now it becomes a matter of those breeders finding someone to buy those animals. That will not happen unless there are folks like me out there looking.

The actual count in the semen will develop along with the style of bull. That fat guy may lose some of his. I hope ours will increase with each generation.

It is a two way street - buyers need to look at things in a different light. You can be sure the breeder will be happy to supply - after all we commercial guys are the main reason they are in business.

Bez!
 
good advice Bez!
Here's an article by Steve Blezinger Ph. D.
It's lengthy but worth the time.



Stephen B. Blezinger, Ph.D. Nutrition and Management
667 CR 4711
Sulphur Springs, TX 75482
(903) 885-7997


Feeding and Management of Newly Purchased Herd Bulls

We’ve all heard the horror stories from cattlemen who have gone out bull shopping, spent a ton of money on a great animal with super genetics only to have him “fall apart” or “crash” out in the pasture and in extreme cases even die of malnutrition or complications of exertion and lack of necessary nutrients. Every breeder who markets developed, breeding age bulls dreads the phone call from a customer saying, “I don’t know what happened to the bull I bought from you, he just fell apart when I put him in with the cows.” While this may not have anything to do with the operation that sold the bull, a situation like this is not good and will probably create a situation where the buyer will not be a repeat customer for the ranch.

So what is a bull buyer or bull producer supposed to do about this situation. First, both individuals have to recognize that they have a role to play in the transition process from the bull being on it’s home ranch and in a development/finishing program to the new ranch where he will be out on pasture and with a group of females he is expected to service. Secondly, the buyer and seller need to communicate about how the bull has been managed through the development period and what will be expected of the animal after purchase. Finally, application of some common-sense management steps can offset a lot of headaches and potential ill-will through this process.

This article will review some basics of bull feeding and management during the development process, what it goes through as it makes the transition from developing bull to breeding bull and some guidelines for making this transition as smooth as possible and effectively reduce stress levels in these cattle.

Background on Bull Development

A key to understanding how to manage newly purchase bulls is to understand how they are developed in the first place and determining which program was used on the bull or bulls you are considering for purchase. Obviously, ranches have been developing bulls for marketing for years. Development programs vary dramatically from ranch to ranch depending on the owner or manager’s philosophy concerning how bulls should be developed and what they perceive their customer base is looking for. These programs can range from the very simple to the very elaborate

In most cases a bull development program may start soon after the bull calf hits the ground that the owner/manager has decided shows promise of becoming a good bull; to be marketed into a commercial or purebred herd. The decision is based on many factors which we’ll not go into in depth other than they can include genetics, EPD’s (birth weights, weaning weights, yearling weights, milking ability, etc.), phenotypic character (color, structure including muscling and bone, polled vs. horned, etc.), disposition, overall perceived quality. Overall, bull calves selected to go into a bull development program should be those that will be sound reproductively and that will sire calves that are desirable from a production standpoint, i.e. they will produce meat or milk in a cost effective manner.

Even before the animals are selected the producer has to decide how he will grow out the bull calves and to what point they will be grown. He must decide if they are to be grown and developed from weaning until they are yearlings (perhaps 12 to 14 months old) in which case the buyer will have additional developing to do with that animal. He may decide to grow these cattle further, to 18, 24 or more months of age. Obviously these cattle are bigger, more mature and provide more indication of what they will be like as completely mature bulls. As mentioned, the next question is how does the producer get them to that final target weight? Some of the options used include:

1) Forage Developed – These are bulls that have been grown out and developed on a forage based nutritional program which may be purely pasture, pasture and hay, pasture and silage, hay, hay and silage, etc. In most cases these types of programs require a minimum of mineral supplementation. Depending on the season of the year and/or the forage quality some supplemental protein and energy may need to be provided to keep bulls gaining at and acceptable rate (2.0 to 2.5 lbs per head per day minimum). The goals here are multi-fold. First, bulls are not overly finished by the time they are marketed, in other words they do not carry a lot of extra fat. This is related to lower rates of gain and generally means the producer will have to keep the bulls longer prior to marketing. This also means that the bulls will not be as big as a similarly aged bull that has been developed on a higher energy nutritional program. These bulls will normally not be as “bloomy” or carrying extra amounts of fat across it’s body. Second, this allows the producer to take advantage of his forage source as a primary part of the nutritional program, thus reducing costs. This can be somewhat risky if the program is not based on stored forages (hay or silage). Weather patterns can change dramatically over a short time period and can require a change in the program mid-term if it suddenly dries up and pasture quality deteriorates. Cattle developed on these programs are more accustomed to “making their way” out in the pasture and are normally at less risk of falling apart once they have been sold and placed with a group of females. His digestive system is more adapted to extracting needed nutrients, in this case from roughages, which requires a specific rumen bacterial population.

2) Modified Forage Developed – These bulls are also developed on a strong forage base but higher levels of supplemental concentrate are provided to increase the animal’s intake of protein and energy and subsequently his rate of gain and finish or fatness at the end of the feeding period. Since these cattle are programmed to gain more they are heavier/bigger at a younger age and can be marketed earlier. This can be good and bad. For the producer it can be good since the animal will not need to be kept as long prior to sale. Second, it takes some of the risk out of depending on the forage base. Third, it’s not as expensive as full feed development but can show some of the same positive results. Programs of this nature are often based on limit fed concentrates in many cases used in self-feeders. On the other hand the buyer must be careful that the bull he is buying is not overly developed at too young of an age and may not have the desired maturity to accompany his size. More about this in a bit. Generally, use of a modified forage development program is good since it can incorporate the best of both worlds, utilization of forage resources and more rapid growth and development of the bull.

3) Full Feed Developed – Many producers like using a full feed development program for several reasons. First it can illustrate the animal’s true genetic potential for gain and feed efficiency. Second, it results in big, growthy, bloomy bulls that many buyers really look for. A third reason some producers prefer this type of program is that they feel they have complete control over the feeding program and can determine exactly what the animal gets and when. By using a well-designed full feed program producers can grow bulls for appropriate times and to appropriate sizes before beginning to push the animals to higher rates of gain and levels of finish. A complete program of this type will include a “cool-down” program where bulls have the last 30 to 45 days of the feeding period to back off of the high feed intake-high average daily gain protocols and come into the sale on a ration which includes higher levels of roughage, lower energy levels and lower gains. Unfortunately, in an effort to place bulls in a sale in as finished of a condition as possible, producers often push bulls for all they are worth up to the very last day. This can be prevented by careful planning of the entire development period, back into and including prior to when the bull is weaned.

Of all the programs, to the buyer, bulls developed under the full feed programs are of greatest concern and must be management the most carefully after purchase and bringing them home to the ranch.

Management and Feeding of a Bull After He Gets to the Ranch

The last thing a buyer should do with a new bull is to unload him off the trailer directly into a pasture with the females needing to be bred. All bulls, whether yearlings or older bulls (2 year olds) need time to rest and adapt after they are transported home. Whether the sale of the bull is private treaty, production sale or otherwise, the transition from the development pasture or lot, handling through the sale process and transportation home(sometimes there may be transportation to the sale facility), is stressful on the animal and steps to minimize this stress should be taken.

Let’s discuss some steps a buyer can use to insure as smooth of a purchase and transition process of a new bull as possible.

1) During the buying process, ask the producer (seller) about his development program. Questions may include:
a) Determine which of the categories listed above their program falls into?
b) How long the bulls have been in the program?
c) What the rates of gain have been?
d) What type of feed or supplements have they been on?
e) How much were they fed daily?
f) Were their any health issues?
g) What type of health program did they use (vaccinations and treatments for any bulls that may have been pulled for sickness)?
2) If possible, procure some of the same feed or supplement the cattle have been fed. If it was a custom mix, ask the producer/seller if he will let you have or sell you a few bags to take home with you for the transition.
3) Transport the bulls home as expediently as possible. Place the bull in a small grass trap with a sound fence, fresh water and hay.
4) If the bull was on a full feed program it will be best to provide him with a similar amount of feed to that he had been receiving. This is where it will be best if the buyer is able to get some of the same feed that the bull has been developed on. It will make the transition easier. If you cannot get access to more of the same feed you will want to begin making the transition over to what feeds you have available within a couple of days of getting him home. Make the change by mixing his old feed with the new feed and over the course of 3 to 4 days completely change him over. Abrupt changes in feed can cause severe digestive upset in cattle resulting in scouring, going completely off feed. In extreme cases you could see acidosis or bloat.
5) If the bull has been on a full feeding program or even a forage based program he will need to be “cooled down,” i.e adapted to a feeding program that is lower in energy. This will not be as much of an issue of you are feeding or supplementing the females he will be running with. In many cases, however, he may be going into a pasture where all he has is grass, hay and a mineral supplement. The issue here is that he will be on a diet that is much lower in energy plus, with the breeding activity he will begin utilizing a lot more energy as he services the cows. This is allowing the rumen bacteria to adapt to the new ration or feeding program and to subsequently process the new, higher forage levels more effectively.
6) Cooling down should be done over about 2 weeks period of time. This will also give you time to insure the bull is healthy as well. After about 2 to 3 days of arrival, and assuming the feed transition has been made, begin reducing the amount of feed he is being provided. Be sure he has free-choice hay and water. I also recommend keeping a mineral feeder in the pen with the same mineral kept out in the pasture so he knows what these are. Bulls can be pretty tough on mineral feeders so be sure to use one that is durable. Over the course of the next couple of weeks reduce his feeding level either to the level that he will be supplemented with the cows in the pasture or down until he is on full hay and pasture. I do, however, normally recommend supplementing a new bull, especially young bulls as best possible through the breeding season to prevent excessive weight loss.
7) Once the bull is ready to be turned out be sure he is place with a group of females he can service effectively. Younger, smaller bulls should be placed with smaller groups of heifers. Try to stay away from placing yearling bulls with groups of older cows. If this cannot be avoided try to limit the number of females in this group.

What to do if he “Crashes.”

Inevitably from time to time you will have a bull that “crashes,” i.e. losses excessive amounts of weight when he is placed out in the pasture. Generally this is due to not going through an effective transition and cool-down period. However, sometimes a bull will crash simply because his libido drives him to the point where he is breeding cows and not focused on anything else. He simply wakes up one day and has lost a huge amount of weight and has little energy to get around. Your best bet to prevent this is to watch the new bulls carefully to make sure they are not overdoing it. If a bull does crash, pull him out of the pasture as soon as you can and place him back in the smaller grass trap with free-choice hay and water. Remember that he is in a depleted energy stage. Additionally he is probably also depleted in protein, minerals and vitamins. Your best bet is to continue to provide him with has and begin feeding him a complete cattle supplement with a generous fat level. Fat is very energy dense and can effectively replenish energy stores. Do not feed him all he can eat but gradually bring him up on feed until he is consuming 1 to 2 % of his body weight and is showing an improvement in body condition. Once he has regained some condition he can be placed back with a group of females again but remember to watch him closely.

Conclusions

Buying a new bull is an exciting process and provides much anticipation for what he can contribute to the cow herd. The process should be conducted carefully, however, and with a great deal of communication between the buyer and seller. Finally, careful management and commons sense can go along way to successfully introducing a new bull into the herd and insuring he has a long productive life.




Dr. Steve Blezinger is and nutritional and management consultant with an office in Sulphur Springs Texas. He can be reached at 667 CR 4711 Sulphur Springs, TX 75482, by phone at (903) 885-7992 or by e-mail at [email protected].
 
Well Bez I believe in grass, I also believe in not starrting little boys to early. And you have to have the genetics to start with. As far as the feed I live in a mild enviroment compared to most.
Here is a couple of young boys one at 4 months the other at 3 months both are at a year old and bought by members on the board.

These are momma and grass only.
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