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Bud Box vs Bud Flow Tub ?
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<blockquote data-quote="RDFF" data-source="post: 1788553" data-attributes="member: 39018"><p>I know I'm coming very late to this "expired" post... and I'm sure FB already built whatever he did..., but I think this is a really important topic to discuss for anybody considering renovating/building facilities. To decide what kind of handling facility you want, you probably first have to figure out HOW YOU'VE LEARNED TO HANDLE CATTLE UP TO THIS POINT, and then decide if you'll be willing to "relearn" how you will handle cattle in the future... REALLY. If you've never understood how to PROPERLY work either a Bud Box OR a tub... FIRST DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Each are designed to function and be operated differently (and I would tend to say that Arrow doesn't really understand the difference either, just by the name they've given their tub... don't get me wrong, Arrow makes good quality equipment that DOES function pretty well... that doesn't mean that they understand the difference between these two systems).</p><p></p><p>Any "tub" is intentionally designed to "crowd" the cattle toward/into the lane by pressuring them from behind and above, and by physically reducing the space the animals are kept in just ahead of it. That's why they have a swinging "crowding gate" in them, which is pushed forward by a man BEHIND it. I don't know about you, but I know that every cow I've ever worked was able to develop more horsepower than I've ever been able to muster... Usually tubs are "sheeted", along with the lanes that the designers put with them... so the animal can't see outside of them... this is a feature designed into them by Temple Grandin's suggestion... you can read about her cattle handling theories and industry prowess by doing some searching online.</p><p></p><p>A Bud Box on the other hand is intented to "allow" the cattle to go into the lane on their own. Usually they are of "open fence" design... NOT sheeted. They got their name from Bud Williams, an expert on low stress livestock handling. The Arrow "Bud Tub" just uses <u>ONE</u> of the principles of a Bud Box, i.e.: that cattle will naturally want to turn back toward where they came from and face the operator (what they view as the predator that chased them in there... notice that there is already a "fear factor" here). However, it ISN'T incorporating perhaps the most important and effective principle of a Bud Box... that the animals will naturally want to work, and can be worked quietly, in a small circle AROUND a man standing in the box (and yes, I acknowledge this too is a recognition of a natural "fear" in them... but which strikes more fear up in them... a man standing quietly where they can see him, or a man standing on a catwalk above them, yelling at them and waving a stick, possibly poking them with a prod, and pushing a gate up against them like the Indiana Jones enclosing walls of death?). If you're confident that you don't ever want to be in the box with the animals, then you probably are going to want a tub (but that also means that your job will likely be considerably more difficult, IMO). A Bud Box <u>can be</u> operated properly from outside of it, IF it has open fencing, and if the animals are a little skittish or dangerous... but it will definitely operate most efficiently and effectively with a well-trained operator inside of it most of the time.</p><p></p><p>If you think you'll be bringing the cattle into the box, close the gate, and then you'll walk carefully around to the other end behind the cattle and encourage them to move up and into the lane from behind them..., you'll likely be disappointed with a Bud Box. THAT'S how a tub is designed to function... and that's how Arrow demonstrates their tub on the video... let the animals in the FRONT of the tub (like you do with a Bud Box... that's why they're using that name), close that gate, then go over behind them and <u>put some pressure on them by your position BEHIND them</u> to get them to turn and run to the other end, where they'll hopefully see an opening and go in. NOTICE that they're not moving AROUND THE MAN... they're running AWAY from the "predator" behind them. So then they'll all crush in around that opening to escape... And that's how most people have learned and how they THINK they should work cattle.</p><p></p><p>In a properly run Bud Box, you don't put pressure on them from behind, but instead, you ALLOW them to <u>circle around and run past you</u> into the lane. There IS a difference, and if you don't think so, you've still got some learning to do before you start to build. Done rightly, you position yourself alongside of the lane opening, so that you can move toward it to control how fast the animals are approaching the lane... you're kind of like a throttle on their movement then. You can control them so they approach calmly, without fear, single file. If you're behind them and not "throttling them", like in the Arrow Bud Tub video, then you HAVE no throttle at all... they're just going to run and crush each other to get into that lane opening, causing stress, and fear. If this throttling of a Bud Box is done right, you'll generally want to have your BACK toward the opening, with the animals then running past behind you... they'll see you as much less of a threat to them that way, they'll not see you as one who might rush in and cut them off from going into that lane, because you're not FACING them. You move in toward the opening, or away from the opening (and then toward the cattle standing on the far end of the box), depending on how fast the animals are moving past you or crowding the entry to the lane. You want them to remain calm, and just walk in for the most part. If they're crashing and crushing to try to get in there, you're not doing your job right (or maybe YOU are, but some of the other helpers aren't...<img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="😖" title="Confounded face :confounded:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f616.png" data-shortname=":confounded:" />).</p><p></p><p>You can't "throttle" the movement of them in that Arrow Bud Tub. And there's not enough room in that tub for you and the animals even if you wanted to be in there, and it's not shaped properly to be able to do that safely. It's DESIGNED to be operated from OUTSIDE the tub... with the man standing BEHIND the animals. BIG DIFFERENCE!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As for size, that's mostly dependent on HOW you will be working that box again (on foot or on horseback), and beyond that, somewhat on how much <u>que capacity</u> your lane will have. In general, a 12' width is just about perfect for working on foot IMO, and a 24' depth is just right too. You'll probably want it a little larger than that in both directions if you're going to work it on horseback. Too small, and you'll not have enough room to manipulate the group... too large, and they'll have too much space around you to be manipulated properly. I personally feel that 10' wide would be too small, even if working a group as small as 3 or 4 at a time. Wider than 12', if on foot, is too much space for them to move in.</p><p></p><p>It can be very helpful with the occasional difficult animal to have a gate mounted on the end post of the lane that you can pull around, narrowing the approach then down to the width of the lane <u>when necessary</u> (I know... now you're thinking that it's the same as the tub... but believe me it's NOT). You'll really only need to use this <u>"when necessary",</u> when you get a wild one that wants to turn back on you or run you over. It keeps her from having a place to be able to turn back around on you in. If you're the only thing there without that gate, she might choose to run you over rather than heading into that lane. If you have a gate attached to the fence on one end, you can tighten up the space before she turns around, so she has to keep going straight forward, and you'll be less likely to get hurt. Don't make a habit of using that gate though, or you'll end up giving up some of the ease of use and flow benefit of a Bud Box.</p><p></p><p><a href="https://nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu/phag/2015/08/07/the-bud-box-and-double-alley-design-for-cattle-pens/#:~:text=While%20the%20Bud%20Box%20system%20will%20work%20with,from%20backing%20up%20once%20they%20have%20moved%20forward." target="_blank">The "Bud Box" and Double Alley Design for Cattle Pens | Panhandle Agriculture (ufl.edu)</a></p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]26240[/ATTACH]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="RDFF, post: 1788553, member: 39018"] I know I'm coming very late to this "expired" post... and I'm sure FB already built whatever he did..., but I think this is a really important topic to discuss for anybody considering renovating/building facilities. To decide what kind of handling facility you want, you probably first have to figure out HOW YOU'VE LEARNED TO HANDLE CATTLE UP TO THIS POINT, and then decide if you'll be willing to "relearn" how you will handle cattle in the future... REALLY. If you've never understood how to PROPERLY work either a Bud Box OR a tub... FIRST DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Each are designed to function and be operated differently (and I would tend to say that Arrow doesn't really understand the difference either, just by the name they've given their tub... don't get me wrong, Arrow makes good quality equipment that DOES function pretty well... that doesn't mean that they understand the difference between these two systems). Any "tub" is intentionally designed to "crowd" the cattle toward/into the lane by pressuring them from behind and above, and by physically reducing the space the animals are kept in just ahead of it. That's why they have a swinging "crowding gate" in them, which is pushed forward by a man BEHIND it. I don't know about you, but I know that every cow I've ever worked was able to develop more horsepower than I've ever been able to muster... Usually tubs are "sheeted", along with the lanes that the designers put with them... so the animal can't see outside of them... this is a feature designed into them by Temple Grandin's suggestion... you can read about her cattle handling theories and industry prowess by doing some searching online. A Bud Box on the other hand is intented to "allow" the cattle to go into the lane on their own. Usually they are of "open fence" design... NOT sheeted. They got their name from Bud Williams, an expert on low stress livestock handling. The Arrow "Bud Tub" just uses [U]ONE[/U] of the principles of a Bud Box, i.e.: that cattle will naturally want to turn back toward where they came from and face the operator (what they view as the predator that chased them in there... notice that there is already a "fear factor" here). However, it ISN'T incorporating perhaps the most important and effective principle of a Bud Box... that the animals will naturally want to work, and can be worked quietly, in a small circle AROUND a man standing in the box (and yes, I acknowledge this too is a recognition of a natural "fear" in them... but which strikes more fear up in them... a man standing quietly where they can see him, or a man standing on a catwalk above them, yelling at them and waving a stick, possibly poking them with a prod, and pushing a gate up against them like the Indiana Jones enclosing walls of death?). If you're confident that you don't ever want to be in the box with the animals, then you probably are going to want a tub (but that also means that your job will likely be considerably more difficult, IMO). A Bud Box [U]can be[/U] operated properly from outside of it, IF it has open fencing, and if the animals are a little skittish or dangerous... but it will definitely operate most efficiently and effectively with a well-trained operator inside of it most of the time. If you think you'll be bringing the cattle into the box, close the gate, and then you'll walk carefully around to the other end behind the cattle and encourage them to move up and into the lane from behind them..., you'll likely be disappointed with a Bud Box. THAT'S how a tub is designed to function... and that's how Arrow demonstrates their tub on the video... let the animals in the FRONT of the tub (like you do with a Bud Box... that's why they're using that name), close that gate, then go over behind them and [U]put some pressure on them by your position BEHIND them[/U] to get them to turn and run to the other end, where they'll hopefully see an opening and go in. NOTICE that they're not moving AROUND THE MAN... they're running AWAY from the "predator" behind them. So then they'll all crush in around that opening to escape... And that's how most people have learned and how they THINK they should work cattle. In a properly run Bud Box, you don't put pressure on them from behind, but instead, you ALLOW them to [U]circle around and run past you[/U] into the lane. There IS a difference, and if you don't think so, you've still got some learning to do before you start to build. Done rightly, you position yourself alongside of the lane opening, so that you can move toward it to control how fast the animals are approaching the lane... you're kind of like a throttle on their movement then. You can control them so they approach calmly, without fear, single file. If you're behind them and not "throttling them", like in the Arrow Bud Tub video, then you HAVE no throttle at all... they're just going to run and crush each other to get into that lane opening, causing stress, and fear. If this throttling of a Bud Box is done right, you'll generally want to have your BACK toward the opening, with the animals then running past behind you... they'll see you as much less of a threat to them that way, they'll not see you as one who might rush in and cut them off from going into that lane, because you're not FACING them. You move in toward the opening, or away from the opening (and then toward the cattle standing on the far end of the box), depending on how fast the animals are moving past you or crowding the entry to the lane. You want them to remain calm, and just walk in for the most part. If they're crashing and crushing to try to get in there, you're not doing your job right (or maybe YOU are, but some of the other helpers aren't...😖). You can't "throttle" the movement of them in that Arrow Bud Tub. And there's not enough room in that tub for you and the animals even if you wanted to be in there, and it's not shaped properly to be able to do that safely. It's DESIGNED to be operated from OUTSIDE the tub... with the man standing BEHIND the animals. BIG DIFFERENCE! As for size, that's mostly dependent on HOW you will be working that box again (on foot or on horseback), and beyond that, somewhat on how much [U]que capacity[/U] your lane will have. In general, a 12' width is just about perfect for working on foot IMO, and a 24' depth is just right too. You'll probably want it a little larger than that in both directions if you're going to work it on horseback. Too small, and you'll not have enough room to manipulate the group... too large, and they'll have too much space around you to be manipulated properly. I personally feel that 10' wide would be too small, even if working a group as small as 3 or 4 at a time. Wider than 12', if on foot, is too much space for them to move in. It can be very helpful with the occasional difficult animal to have a gate mounted on the end post of the lane that you can pull around, narrowing the approach then down to the width of the lane [U]when necessary[/U] (I know... now you're thinking that it's the same as the tub... but believe me it's NOT). You'll really only need to use this [U]"when necessary",[/U] when you get a wild one that wants to turn back on you or run you over. It keeps her from having a place to be able to turn back around on you in. If you're the only thing there without that gate, she might choose to run you over rather than heading into that lane. If you have a gate attached to the fence on one end, you can tighten up the space before she turns around, so she has to keep going straight forward, and you'll be less likely to get hurt. Don't make a habit of using that gate though, or you'll end up giving up some of the ease of use and flow benefit of a Bud Box. [URL='https://nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu/phag/2015/08/07/the-bud-box-and-double-alley-design-for-cattle-pens/#:~:text=While%20the%20Bud%20Box%20system%20will%20work%20with,from%20backing%20up%20once%20they%20have%20moved%20forward.']The "Bud Box" and Double Alley Design for Cattle Pens | Panhandle Agriculture (ufl.edu)[/URL] [ATTACH type="full" alt="1676336702136.png"]26240[/ATTACH] [/QUOTE]
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