Bud Box vs Bud Flow Tub ?

[frank boucher]

I can't decide which to build?Pros and cons to both here in my situation.I'd like some of your guys in put,as I've never been around a bud box in use here,don't know of anybody using one here.Seen a few tubs at Vet's or salebarn,but no experience using one.I keep about 35 cows.Built original wood corral in 1987.Replaced alley going to headgate 3 years ago with pipe,cut off gate,palp,side exit and priefert 91 headgate,this parts good.Cows come out of holding pen from the east down 8 ft. alley into a wedge shaped crowding area,then 90 degree turn north into alley to headgate.Got to replace the wedge shaped area,some posts and boards rotting,panels been added,cows bottleneck and hang up here also so it's a bad deal.Also use this area to loadout gooseneck trailers.My pipe alleyway to headgate will be 32 feet long,so should hold 5 cows.My goal is to work cows,big weaning size calves by myself.Have good local crew with all equipment needed to build either.
Bud box-less $-easier to fashion trailer loadout and walkthru gate to working area.I've watched several videos and 12 wide by 24 foot long seems correct size for 5 cows?
Arrow equipment Bud flow tub design....More $,more difficult to make a walkthru gate over where I need it and make trailer loadout.Here's a link maybe..http://arrowquip.com/products/cattle-cr ... -flow-tub/.
I'd appreciate hearing your guys experiences and opinions and any other ideas,especially from bud box users as I'm leaning that way,and I like the low stress slow easy handling methods.
Thanks

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I like the idea behind that flow tub.

 

[bird dog]

Bud boxes work well until they don't. There is always one or two stubborn animals and not an easy way to force them into the chute. I like that tub design.

 

[Brute 23]

I like the bud box still. The flow tube requires you to be in too close with the cattle and doesn't look like you can move very many at a time.

 

[frank boucher]

Hey Brute, Is 12x24 about right size on 5 cows? My brother thinks it's too long and 12x20 may be better.What do you think?

 

[Brute 23]

Hey Brute, Is 12x24 about right size on 5 cows? My brother thinks it's too long and 12x20 may be better.What do you think?

That should be more than plenty in my opinion. You probably don't really need 24' of length. 10x15 or so would be more than plenty.

 

[RDFF]

I can't decide which to build? Pros and cons to both here in my situation.I'd like some of your guys in put,as I've never been around a bud box in use here,don't know of anybody using one here.Seen a few tubs at Vet's or salebarn,but no experience using one.

Arrow equipment Bud flow tub design....More $,more difficult to make a walkthru gate over where I need it and make trailer loadout.Here's a link maybe..http://arrowquip.com/products/cattle-cr ... -flow-tub/.

I know I'm coming very late to this "expired" post... and I'm sure FB already built whatever he did..., but I think this is a really important topic to discuss for anybody considering renovating/building facilities. To decide what kind of handling facility you want, you probably first have to figure out HOW YOU'VE LEARNED TO HANDLE CATTLE UP TO THIS POINT, and then decide if you'll be willing to "relearn" how you will handle cattle in the future... REALLY. If you've never understood how to PROPERLY work either a Bud Box OR a tub... FIRST DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Each are designed to function and be operated differently (and I would tend to say that Arrow doesn't really understand the difference either, just by the name they've given their tub... don't get me wrong, Arrow makes good quality equipment that DOES function pretty well... that doesn't mean that they understand the difference between these two systems).

Any "tub" is intentionally designed to "crowd" the cattle toward/into the lane by pressuring them from behind and above, and by physically reducing the space the animals are kept in just ahead of it. That's why they have a swinging "crowding gate" in them, which is pushed forward by a man BEHIND it. I don't know about you, but I know that every cow I've ever worked was able to develop more horsepower than I've ever been able to muster... Usually tubs are "sheeted", along with the lanes that the designers put with them... so the animal can't see outside of them... this is a feature designed into them by Temple Grandin's suggestion... you can read about her cattle handling theories and industry prowess by doing some searching online.

A Bud Box on the other hand is intented to "allow" the cattle to go into the lane on their own. Usually they are of "open fence" design... NOT sheeted. They got their name from Bud Williams, an expert on low stress livestock handling. The Arrow "Bud Tub" just uses ONE of the principles of a Bud Box, i.e.: that cattle will naturally want to turn back toward where they came from and face the operator (what they view as the predator that chased them in there... notice that there is already a "fear factor" here). However, it ISN'T incorporating perhaps the most important and effective principle of a Bud Box... that the animals will naturally want to work, and can be worked quietly, in a small circle AROUND a man standing in the box (and yes, I acknowledge this too is a recognition of a natural "fear" in them... but which strikes more fear up in them... a man standing quietly where they can see him, or a man standing on a catwalk above them, yelling at them and waving a stick, possibly poking them with a prod, and pushing a gate up against them like the Indiana Jones enclosing walls of death?). If you're confident that you don't ever want to be in the box with the animals, then you probably are going to want a tub (but that also means that your job will likely be considerably more difficult, IMO). A Bud Box can be operated properly from outside of it, IF it has open fencing, and if the animals are a little skittish or dangerous... but it will definitely operate most efficiently and effectively with a well-trained operator inside of it most of the time.

If you think you'll be bringing the cattle into the box, close the gate, and then you'll walk carefully around to the other end behind the cattle and encourage them to move up and into the lane from behind them..., you'll likely be disappointed with a Bud Box. THAT'S how a tub is designed to function... and that's how Arrow demonstrates their tub on the video... let the animals in the FRONT of the tub (like you do with a Bud Box... that's why they're using that name), close that gate, then go over behind them and put some pressure on them by your position BEHIND them to get them to turn and run to the other end, where they'll hopefully see an opening and go in. NOTICE that they're not moving AROUND THE MAN... they're running AWAY from the "predator" behind them. So then they'll all crush in around that opening to escape... And that's how most people have learned and how they THINK they should work cattle.

In a properly run Bud Box, you don't put pressure on them from behind, but instead, you ALLOW them to circle around and run past you into the lane. There IS a difference, and if you don't think so, you've still got some learning to do before you start to build. Done rightly, you position yourself alongside of the lane opening, so that you can move toward it to control how fast the animals are approaching the lane... you're kind of like a throttle on their movement then. You can control them so they approach calmly, without fear, single file. If you're behind them and not "throttling them", like in the Arrow Bud Tub video, then you HAVE no throttle at all... they're just going to run and crush each other to get into that lane opening, causing stress, and fear. If this throttling of a Bud Box is done right, you'll generally want to have your BACK toward the opening, with the animals then running past behind you... they'll see you as much less of a threat to them that way, they'll not see you as one who might rush in and cut them off from going into that lane, because you're not FACING them. You move in toward the opening, or away from the opening (and then toward the cattle standing on the far end of the box), depending on how fast the animals are moving past you or crowding the entry to the lane. You want them to remain calm, and just walk in for the most part. If they're crashing and crushing to try to get in there, you're not doing your job right (or maybe YOU are, but some of the other helpers aren't...).

You can't "throttle" the movement of them in that Arrow Bud Tub. And there's not enough room in that tub for you and the animals even if you wanted to be in there, and it's not shaped properly to be able to do that safely. It's DESIGNED to be operated from OUTSIDE the tub... with the man standing BEHIND the animals. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Hey Brute, Is 12x24 about right size on 5 cows? My brother thinks it's too long and 12x20 may be better.What do you think?

As for size, that's mostly dependent on HOW you will be working that box again (on foot or on horseback), and beyond that, somewhat on how much que capacity your lane will have. In general, a 12' width is just about perfect for working on foot IMO, and a 24' depth is just right too. You'll probably want it a little larger than that in both directions if you're going to work it on horseback. Too small, and you'll not have enough room to manipulate the group... too large, and they'll have too much space around you to be manipulated properly. I personally feel that 10' wide would be too small, even if working a group as small as 3 or 4 at a time. Wider than 12', if on foot, is too much space for them to move in.

It can be very helpful with the occasional difficult animal to have a gate mounted on the end post of the lane that you can pull around, narrowing the approach then down to the width of the lane when necessary (I know... now you're thinking that it's the same as the tub... but believe me it's NOT). You'll really only need to use this "when necessary", when you get a wild one that wants to turn back on you or run you over. It keeps her from having a place to be able to turn back around on you in. If you're the only thing there without that gate, she might choose to run you over rather than heading into that lane. If you have a gate attached to the fence on one end, you can tighten up the space before she turns around, so she has to keep going straight forward, and you'll be less likely to get hurt. Don't make a habit of using that gate though, or you'll end up giving up some of the ease of use and flow benefit of a Bud Box.

The "Bud Box" and Double Alley Design for Cattle Pens | Panhandle Agriculture (ufl.edu)

 

[anewcomer]

RDFF, Bud would be proud of your explanation!

 

[KAstocker]

Thanks for the bud box tips, @RDFF. Sometimes the lead animal doesn't want to go all the way up the alley, causing a pause to the flow and leaving a couple stragglers in the bud box. Any tips to get them to want to go all the way up?

 

[RDFF]

Thanks for the bud box tips, @RDFF. Sometimes the lead animal doesn't want to go all the way up the alley, causing a pause to the flow and leaving a couple stragglers in the bud box. Any tips to get them to want to go all the way up?

How long is your alley? Longer can obviously be helpful, within reason, so they don't feel so much like they're bumping up against a dead end. Open panel gates on the end, rather than solid sheeted, allows them to see through and possibly see another animal ahead (like on the other side of the gate in the squeeze...). A double alley can be helpful to the animal's "group think" as well (buddy standing/moving up right along side of them... feel more like they're moving along with the herd rather than having been singled out and therefore feeling more vulnerable), but in the end, it's all about creating circumstances where they WANT to move forward and eliminating possible deterrents. Is there a man outside and alongside of the alley? Is he aware of his body position and its potential impact on the animal movement in the alley? Can he move back down the alley as they come forward maybe... so the animals will tend to naturally work forward as they try to "circle around past him" (just like they do in a properly run Bud Box)? They have to feel like forward is the way to relieve the pressure point of the man relative to them. Is your alley a V-type, with the floor significantly narrower, and particularly, the narrowest point of the alley? If it's awkwardly narrow at the floor, the animals won't feel like they can balance themselves as well (just as you would feel in it)... and it will tend to impede their forward movement some. Automatic anti-back up devices in alleys can be a kind of a double-edged sword... they prevent the animal from being able to back up... but often they tend to psychologically deter them from moving forward through them too... and can tend to make them feel like they're moving into a trap (which of course they are!). The less visually instrusive they are the better. I don't have any in my alley... other than rolling cut doors on both ends. I like them because when they're open... they're fully OPEN... with nothing for the animal to think about. And when they're closed, they're closed. But I still have critters at times that will balk partway up the alley too. Usually though, just walking along outside of the lane PROPERLY to allow the animal to feel like they're escaping that man's pressure point is about all it takes. However, if you have solid sheeted sides on your alley, this won't work nearly as well, because they won't be able to see that man as easily and won't "feel" that pressure point from his presence and position relative to them as much, if at all... they'll feel less pressure because they're able to be shielded from it behind that sheeting.

Daniel's Mfg. makes some really good, well built, excellent quality and designed stuff... (NO, I am not in any way associated with them, and don't own any of their equipment... and actually have never even seen any of it in person...). Look at this video from their website about the Bud Box and facility design.

https://www.danielsmfg.com/index_htm_files/Feedlot Facilities Online - 2.0.mp4

You'll see the same older fellow operating the box, at :22 seconds in, and again at 1:52 in. Notice HOW he functions in that box, and HOW THE CATTLE REACT TO HIS BODY POSITION. What I want to point out is more obvious in the second clip. And know up-front that I realize that this is an older gentleman who doesn't move as smoothly or quickly as he certainly did in his younger days... so realize too that I'm being critical of his actions here to make a point, not about HIM, but about what the result of his movements were. The cattle don't care how old or agile you are... they only care about what you do or signal you MIGHT do, and how they will react in relationship to that.

In the first clip, he "allows the throttle to open up" just a little bit too much to start with, and the cattle move just a little too quickly toward the alley... so they're a little bit "out of control"... and they bunch up a tiny amount, but most would say that "all went smoothly"... You could easily say that I'm being overly critical with my observation on this one (and I know that I am)... my point is, it is immediately obvious to me that he didn't have as much of a handle on "control" as he easily could/should have. Maybe they just got away on him this time. It happens, right? I know that it does to me... but usually there's a reason. OR..., maybe it's possible that as a handler, he simply isn't quite as in tune to the animals as he might ought to be... maybe...?

Now go to that second time stamp, same operator, and see if he displays just a little bit of a lack of full comprehension of/appreciation for how the animals will react to him again... The first animal turns back. Why? BECAUSE he didn't have himself positioned quite right to control that turn... but, at least he DIDN'T get excited... he simply let that animal turn back, and chose to just take the next one as lead..., right decision... but then a second and third animal absolutely get turned back.. specifically because of his body position relative to them... he got ahead of their shoulder, so to speak, and just as important a point..., WHILE FACING THEM AND LEANING FORWARD... the animals don't know that he can't move as fast as he used to be able to, or as fast as many of the other "cowboys at this joint", so they considered him to be as capable as a linebacker intending to cut off and run down a runaway quarterback. He "had the advantage on them" and "cut them off", and they knew it. The result was that he didn't just "throttle 'em back" to slow them down... he "hit the brakes hard", but he only had the intention of slowing down their pace a little. He didn't intend for that movement to shut them down completely... but it did, because he got just a little too far ahead of that pressure point. WHY did he move forward as much as he did, when he did? ...Probably somewhat in reaction to that first steer in the group turning back... a little bit of over-compensation, over-anticipating, trying to be "a little further ahead of the animals thoughts" so he wouldn't have a "wreck" again... coupled with a recognition that they can move faster than his own somewhat slower reaction time, so he wanted to give himself just a little bit more of an edge... anticipate the animal to be a little further "ahead of the curve"... who knows, most of that is done "subconsciously"... whatever it might have been that caused him to position himself too far forward becomes irrelevant. In the end he did... , and it becomes obvious WHY those next two steers turned back when watching the video. Those last two steers PROBABLY wouldn't have turned back, EVEN IF HE HAD POSITIONED HIMSELF IN THE SAME SPOT, if he had had his back toward the alley (so they would have been running around behind him to get to the alley), instead of moving forward toward it while facing them. You don't necessarily ALWAYS want to be positioned in this way... it depends on the situation... but in THIS CASE, just that small change probably would have made the difference in how those steers reacted to him. WHY? Because with that stance/body language, they would have viewed him as less of a threat to their ability to safely exit into the alley.

So now, you have to ask yourself..., "Does he as an operator understand this, recognize it, and acknowlege it so that he can avoid it in the future? Or is he instead confident that he'd positioned himself properly, and just blames the cattle for their misbehavior... and so that then is how he'll function again in the future? Can he be taught to see this? Or is this just the way that he is, it's the way he's learned to handle cattle, and so it's the way that he'll always operate relative to them..."?

He's actually not a "terrible" operator, and he's honestly going to do "fine". He's probably a very experienced cattleman... and is certainly doing alot better than many people that I often see handling cattle (cattle truckers often seem to be some of the worst), and he will in general maintain a reasonable "flow rate" through the system.... so why am I picking on him? I don't intend to "pick on him"... but I point it out because this video does a great job of demonstrating these very minute nuances that can make the difference between a great, easy flowing day, and a day with difficulties. I'm picking on the operator's ACTIONS in these two clips because they DO demonstrate the very nuanced points about PROPERLY operating in a Bud Box that I'm referring to and that are SO important to a facility's smooth operation! They're no less important when moving cattle in a larger pen, or out in a pasture... If you've ever seen a well bred Border Collie with a strong "eye", you know what I mean. They can control a whole herd just with a slight movement of the head! That's how important this stuff is.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Some prefer a 14' wide box. This helps get cattle movement when you are working from the front.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Cows come out of holding pen from the east down 8 ft. alley into a wedge-shaped crowding area, then 90 degree turn north into alley to headgate. Got to replace the wedge shaped area, cows bottleneck and hang up here also so it's a bad deal.

I also have pairs hang up or turn around in a wedge-shaped area between the box, and a long alley at 90 degrees to the box. Calves have the biggest problem with this.

I added a swing gate to narrow the wedge-shaped area, but using it requires you to get close to the hung-up animals and put on a lot of pressure from behind.

I think the position of the man outside the alley is part of the problem. Is the wedge-shaped transition between the box and the alley a poor idea?

 

[KAstocker]

@RDFF I'm sure it's mostly operator error on my end. I do have an AQ chute with a solid sheeted rear gate but alley is just heavy duty panels. I thought AQ was all about letting the cattle see the way forward. I guess they forgot about the cattle still in the alley.

 

[Aero]

I am not an expert on Bud Williams but it looks like that tub is the opposite of the Bud Box concept. I don't think Bud was a fan of direct pressure and crowding/squeeze.

 

[RDFF]

@RDFF I'm sure it's mostly operator error on my end. I do have an AQ chute with a solid sheeted rear gate but alley is just heavy duty panels. I thought AQ was all about letting the cattle see the way forward. I guess they forgot about the cattle still in the alley.

They've corrected that solid sheeted gate on their newer chutes. AQ has some of the better designed equipment out there, IMO. I like their chute features in particular... very similar to the Lakeside... made by Daniels. Nothing wrong with heavy duty panels for an alley... in fact, that'd be better than many permanently installed systems, IMO.

It doesn't matter whose "tub" you might choose, they're all designed to FORCE the animals forward with pressure from behind (they used to use the term "forcing tub" or "crowding tub")... just the opposite of the intent with a properly designed and operated Bud Box. You'll ALWAYS end up with a pie shaped wedge in a "tub", with the narrow "hinge point" of the pie at the center. So where does the most room in this pie end up being? At the outside of the tub, right in front of the exit to the alley. SEEMS like a good idea, right? I mean, the cattle will WANT to go where the most room is, right? But where is the man positioned? Behind the crowding gate, intending to "scare them forward" away from him so they'll "escape" into that alley, and taking up any slack that they might give him with that crowding gate. Who does the animal view as the "predator/threat"? And what does that animal want to do when it feels "threatened" and "cornered"? Go to the far corner away from the threat, and face it, so it can react to protect itself. So what happens? Animals that feel threatened will try to turn around right in front of the alley.

In contrast... if you DO add a "crowding gate" to your Bud Box, you'll hinge it at the alley post, with the widest area of the pie then being AWAY FROM the alley entrance... this lets you open up a bit on the swing end of the gate, as you back AWAY from the animal (reducing your threat and giving them some room), and away from the alley. This allows an animal that got turned around backward in front of the alley to move out away from it, and to then turn back toward it again in a controlled manner... at which point you can pull the gate up tighter, so the excited animal doesn't have room to turn back again... they can back up till they hit the other side of the box, but they're contained now in a controlled width extension of the alley essentially. You aren't attempting to keep them from backing up with you're own strength... you're just containing them from pushing the gate open wider, a sideways move for them... so a more difficult move for them for which they don't have good leverage... so an advantage to you. You are positioned on the swing end of the gate... so the animal will now want to "escape" forward, away from you. If you can lock that gate against the outside of the Bud Box in that "alley width position", even with a belligerent animal, you can then walk up to a position in front of it and walk past it toward its rear... in most cases, it will see you as a threat, will back up as you approach from the front, and as you pass by its front shoulder, it will try to "escape" from your "threat" forward into the alley ahead (and again, even more so if you're doing this with your back toward the animal instead of facing it like a cat about to pounce!...). Again... this is just the OPPOSITE of how a crowding tub, and a crowding gate in a tub... functions.

AQ puts their "in-flow entry gate" in their "BudFlow Tub" so it locks in place a couple of feet PAST the lane opening, with a "man gate" there... this gives the animals MORE room there right in front of the alley... this means that they have still MORE space to turn around there, and cause a roadblock, if they feel threatened enough by the man behind the crowding gate.

They can potentially "hide" in that corner there... as far away from the "predator" as possible... and facing him. Don't get me wrong, this tub WILL work... as long as you don't try to pressure them too hard (notice on the video that they're NOT pressuring those cattle)... or as long as they don't feel that the alley is more dangerous than the threat coming up behind them. Start incrementally increasing the level of "threat" though... out of position handlers whistling, urging the cattle with voice, or more, yelling, waving arms and sticks, poking with hotshots, clanging gates, dogs barking and nipping,... and they become wary very quickly. EVERYTHING becomes a threat... including that alley you are trying to force them to go into.

There's just no way to have the animals move correctly in relationship to the man in a tub design, IMO. It's designed with an entirely different mentality toward cattle handling. Incorporating a few of Bud William's box attributes (enter at the front instead of the rear, lower the sheeting on the sides a bit to let in more light, etc.) and calling it a "BudFlow Tub" doesn't make it a Bud Box disguised as a tub.

If you don't ever want to be in the pen with the cattle though, or if you don't understand all of these principles, a tub may just be the right fit for you. Everybody has their own personal preferences and comfort levels... there is no "right or wrong" in that department.

 

[RDFF]

I also have pairs hang up or turn around in a wedge-shaped area between the box, and a long alley at 90 degrees to the box. Calves have the biggest problem with this.

I added a swing gate to narrow the wedge-shaped area, but using it requires you to get close to the hung-up animals and put on a lot of pressure from behind.

I think the position of the man outside the alley is part of the problem. Is the wedge-shaped transition between the box and the alley a poor idea?

Steve, that's exactly right... the wedge shape... is bad. The position of the man outside the alley... is bad (remember that the animals actually want to be facing their stalking predator.. i.e.: YOU..., so they can REACT in relationship to it. It's up to YOU to control what that reaction to YOU is. If you're not positioning yourself appropriately at the front, so they can run around past you as you move toward them, you're not in the right position... If you have learned to PUSH cattle, instead of PULLING them, you're going to be in for a long day of doing a whole lot more work). If you set up a properly sized rectangular Bud Box, but don't operate within it properly... it's bad. If you don't have the animals enter the box through the front, going past the alley, and then turn toward the operator and move AROUND THE CORNER and past him... it's bad. If he doesn't understand "throttling the cattle" with body position AND BODY PRESENTATION/LANGUAGE... it's bad. If you don't have the alley running off of the box, perpendicular to the box... it's bad. If you don't understand "pressure points" and how to apply them, or just DON'T apply them properly... it's bad. If you don't understand "keep quiet, keep calm, no waving of the arms", it's bad. If you're other "help" outside of the box and alley don't understand THEIR impact on the cattle movement..., it's bad.

Get all those important little details right though, and it works great. Think of it this way... a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. It doesn't matter if every other link in that chain is perfect... one link with a flaw, and it's going to be a wreck. The more "weak links" there are in the chain, the more likely you are to have a wreck. Sometimes you can "make it work" with some weak links... IF you don't ever test them. Quiet cattle.., and one really excellent operator can sometimes get by stringing together a bunch of weak links with some twine string...... but sooner or later, one of them is going to become overloaded.

Probably the biggest, most dangerous "weak link" in the whole thing is the operator. If he doesn't "operate" with the greatest attention to all of his cattle handling skills and principles, you're going to have a wreck, even in really well-designed facilities.

At that point, it won't matter if you were working with a tub or a box.

 

[RDFF]

Here's a couple of design drawings that you might find helpful, regardless of which design type you might choose. I assume the first drawing is pretty much what FB had, as best I could understand from his description. The alley is the same, 32' to scale, on all of them. Obviously I don't know what he might have had for a corral ahead of the "lead-up"...

I drew the leadup alley on the two new designs 12' wide because I personally feel that's a better, more manageable, and potentially safer working width. That's personal preference though. I also continued that width then for the tub radius... again, because I feel like that's a good width. Most of the commercially available "portable tubs" will be significantly smaller... primarily because they have to be portable... so size is a limiting factor for "roading" and for weight (and of course, the larger they are, the higher the cost will be... and in a competitive market, price point sells). As the radius of the tub gets bigger though, it becomes more difficult to apply the pressure you might want to use to move that crowding gate forward, so there IS a balance to be struck here. And you don't want the animals to have "too much" room there either.

I'm a big fan of the heavy 24' freestanding panels. I find they work really great for the Bud Box too. And I doubt that you can have a better quality fence panel of equal length custom built in place for less. I like that I can use them anywhere, anytime, and set them up to fit the situation... but then, I'm operating on four different properties. After using them though, I don't think I'd ever build a permanently installed in the ground system again... but of course that's my personal preference. And most of the investment is "recoupable"... you can always sell them again. If choosing the Bud Box design, all you need is 2-24' panels and a few HD gates. Pretty simple, quick and easy to set up, AND cost effective.

I set my computer program for the circumference of the tub for 3' post spacings. I think that would be about right... and then I'd have a way to lock the crowding gate onto each post.

One advantage of the Bud Box that has nothing to do with the actual "working" of the cattle that I've found helpful is that it's a straight shot through it. I move cattle into the corral by unrolling hay in one end and out the other. So I drive right in the bottom end of the corral, and out the far end of the Bud Box with my tractor. Can't do that with a tub. We also set up "sorting pens" off the side of the Bud Box... using the 24' freestanding panels. Typically, we'll put 2-12' wide x 48' long pens there, using 7 freestanding panels, with a 12' gate on the front of each of them on the left side of the Bud Box. Obviously you could put more pens on the other side of it too if you needed to, and on the end.... that versatility is what I appreciate about those panels. When unrolling hay to bring them in, I leave the "end panel" off of those side pens, and unroll into them then too. Then we just keep everything "open" as the herd is brought up into the whole corral/box/side pens, get the corral closed up to contain them, and then move them back out of the sorting pens and begin the sorting process out of the Bud Box. We just worked through 275 head about a week ago this way, 4 semi loads left, with a few remaining behind on the property when we got done.

And of course, you could have gates mounted all around the outside of a Tub that go out into "pie shaped pens" too... ArrowQuip sells a system like that called their "draft pound sorting system", with a "round" sorting pen in the center.



and



(Notice too on these videos that the separate "crowding tub" they have in this installation is significantly larger than any "portable tub" ever would be... likely about a 12' radius).

BTW, obviously, you "could have" the tub come all the way around against the alley... I drew it like I did so the "chute/alley operator" could push that crowd gate forward to load the lane. That also allows access to the lane by the chute operator to move animals forward in it as necessary... if the tub comes all the way around, that will be more difficult. If working alone, if you install a "man access gate" in the side of the lane (between the tub and the lane), once you've loaded the tub, you can go out through the lane, then push that crowd gate forward yourself to load the lane, then lock that man-gate across behind the animals in the lane once you've gotten them loaded, and then go work them through the chute. When that group is done, you can go through that man-gate again to get another tub/lane full.

Obviously, installing man-gates similarly where appropriate in the Bud Box design would also make access as needed easier as well.

 

[backhoeboogie]

RDFF - I like your Medina Hinge in the center of the alley. You name them something different but they work the same. I can blind off the alley and just help cows in trouble right there in the Medina.

Change out your "HD Panel" on the end to a gate and you are close to the set up I had. Cows went down that alley any time they changed pastures. I changed often. Rotating pastures was something that help me. If I just gave them a few bags of cubes, it was in that alley. Honk the horn and they came running to the alley.

As far as the other type designs, it will depend on the individual, and how he manages. I was small potatoes. The most momma's I had was somewhere around 85. I checked them frequently.

I have also gone and "helped" gather cows that had never seen humans before it seems. Those cows would have climbed out of all those pens pictured above. Dogs were valuable in those scenarios and most folks had escape plans for dogs.

To each his own.

I do like a medina hinge - for several reasons. That was all we had way back when. No working chutes etc. We were poor. You can do an awful lot of work, vaccinate, pull calves, etc with a medina hinge. If someone has a small number of head, I go with a medina hinge before anything else. You always have the folks who call for help who have virtually nothing.

 

[Brute 23]

There are a lot of times that medina is handy. We don't run massive bulls any more but a lot of people work their bulls in the medina so they don't have to worry about them going down the chutes, especially when they have permanent head gates.

 

[RDFF]

RDFF - I like your Medina Hinge in the center of the alley. You name them something different but they work the same. I can blind off the alley and just help cows in trouble right there in the Medina.

Change out your "HD Panel" on the end to a gate and you are close to the set up I had. Cows went down that alley any time they changed pastures. I changed often. Rotating pastures was something that help me. If I just gave them a few bags of cubes, it was in that alley. Honk the horn and they came running to the alley.

As far as the other type designs, it will depend on the individual, and how he manages. I was small potatoes. The most momma's I had was somewhere around 85. I checked them frequently.

I have also gone and "helped" gather cows that had never seen humans before it seems. Those cows would have climbed out of all those pens pictured above. Dogs were valuable in those scenarios and most folks had escape plans for dogs.

To each his own.

I do like a medina hinge - for several reasons. That was all we had way back when. No working chutes etc. We were poor. You can do an awful lot of work, vaccinate, pull calves, etc with a medina hinge. If someone has a small number of head, I go with a medina hinge before anything else. You always have the folks who call for help who have virtually nothing.

Yup... never heard it called that, but you're right... Medina hinge. Can be very helpful with those that need it! Can greatly improve the "safety aspect" of working them through. Minimal cost involved.