Breeding plans, the means to the end?

[brihop]

I have straight purebred black angus cows in north central Florida. Ideally I'd ultimately I'd like to have cows that are 1/2 BA, 1/4 Simm & 1/4 Brahman. I'm pretty sure on those 3 breeds, however, the ratio of the 3 breeds could be tweaked a bit. I could get where I want to go a couple of different ways, hoping you guys can give me your opinion on which way you'd pick...

1) Breed all BA cows to Brahman bull for a couple of years, long enough to get a nice set of F1 brangus females. (however, I'd be taking a hit on the F1 bull calves at the market). Then breed those F1s to the Black Simm bull for market calves and replacement heifers as needed. This maximizes hybrid vigor.

-or-

2) Find an F1 BrahmanXBlack Simm bull to breed to my black angus cows, which gives me my ideal ratio in one shot for replacements and I also shouldn't take as hard of a hit on bull calves at the market. (I realize I'll probably have to find/buy a good brahman cow and AI her to black Simm to produce my own bull)

I just can't decide which one would be best, as both scenarios have good points.

 

[BRG]

Ranching is really slow. You need to figure out where you want to be by when(time frame) by breeding to a purebred Brahman bull and then a few years later find a simmi bull it takes quite a bit lot longer. I would try to find your F1 and go from there as you will get your cross alot quicker.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

you can breed a animal that can perform to much for your area,, the route id take is the bra/angus F1...using the simm bull for terminal.....bra/simm... bull on the angus for maternal

 

[bigbull338]

ill take it 1 step further why not put a simbra bull on your angus cows.

 

[TexasBred]

Never had this mix but seems a great simbrah bull put on those ladies would work. You won't have near as much ear with your first calf crop and you'll reach your destination quicker. :2cents:

 

[brihop]

Forgot to mention that true Simbrah bulls (5/8-3/8) aren't available in my area, at least I don't know of any sources nearby. I also thought that if I bred my own F1 Simbrah (50% Brahman) bull it would give me the instant 1/4 brahman blood that I want in my replacement heifers. ...Are there any problems going with an F1 bull?

 

[insurman]

Forgot to mention that true Simbrah bulls (5/8-3/8) aren't available in my area, at least I don't know of any sources nearby. I also thought that if I bred my own F1 Simbrah (50% Brahman) bull it would give me the instant 1/4 brahman blood that I want in my replacement heifers. ...Are there any problems going with an F1 bull?

one of the leading Simbrah breeders is Tim Smith at Smith Genetics in Giddings, Texas. Has great stock and a nice guy, if you reach out to him I am sure he would be able to give you some advice. I know he sends bulls to South America so I am sure he could get one to you in Florida or at least give you some names of people closer to you.

 

[novatech]

Forgot to mention that true Simbrah bulls (5/8-3/8) aren't available in my area, at least I don't know of any sources nearby. I also thought that if I bred my own F1 Simbrah (50% Brahman) bull it would give me the instant 1/4 brahman blood that I want in my replacement heifers. ...Are there any problems going with an F1 bull?

one of the leading Simbrah breeders is Tim Smith at Smith Genetics in Giddings, Texas. Has great stock and a nice guy, if you reach out to him I am sure he would be able to give you some advice. I know he sends bulls to South America so I am sure he could get one to you in Florida or at least give you some names of people closer to you.

Have you thought about AI? Seems like some of the Smith bulls would fit the program. http://www.smithgenetics.com/newsite/bullssemen.html

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Forgot to mention that true Simbrah bulls (5/8-3/8) aren't available in my area, at least I don't know of any sources nearby. I also thought that if I bred my own F1 Simbrah (50% Brahman) bull it would give me the instant 1/4 brahman blood that I want in my replacement heifers. ...Are there any problems going with an F1 bull?[/quote] with alot depending on your angus cows, it would be consistency in the calves... with the 3 breeds your thinking of,you can make a train wreck,, or a functional animal ... F1's make great moma's but their one hit wonders.. they cant reproduced themselves,ill give you a great example ... say you had a neighbor with a good solid set of brangus cow's ...... all the years, money, labor you spend in developement he could go purchase a good simmental bull,,and knock you in the dirt with his first crop... he just beat you by accident, what you've been trying to accomplish on purpous

 

[Julian]

Forgot to mention that true Simbrah bulls (5/8-3/8) aren't available in my area, at least I don't know of any sources nearby. I also thought that if I bred my own F1 Simbrah (50% Brahman) bull it would give me the instant 1/4 brahman blood that I want in my replacement heifers. ...Are there any problems going with an F1 bull?

The closer bred your cowherd the less variable your calf crop will be when sired by an F1 bull. If there have been bulls of several different breeding programs used to produce your cowherd you may not want to use an F1 bull.

 

[brihop]

I appreciate the comments from everyone. Upon reviewing your input and thinking about it, I believe I'll keep the angus cow base I already have. In the future, if I get the chance I'll buy a well bred 3/8 Brangus bull to put over some of these angus cows to add a bit of heat tolerance to the calves. However, for now I'll use the Angus bulls we already have. (One herd bull and a real nice up and comer son). If I do any F1s it'll certainly be purchased cows and I'll breed them to the Angus bulls. (Might have the chance to get some F1 Brahman/Braunvieh heifers next year, which will work well bred to the Angus bull. Thanks!

 

[Lucky_P]

brihop,
Back in the early '80s, we ran an F1 Simmental/Brahman bull on our mostly black baldy herd, in east-central AL. Made the best calves - and ultimately, the best cows - we ever raised.
Good calves, but colors ran the gamut; bull was gray, cows had 15 yrs of Angus breeding on top of a Hereford base, with a little Jersey/Guernsey influence in some that were descended from the last of my family's dairy herd.
There wasn't nearly as much discrimination over coat color back in that day as there is now; I'd take a pretty good hit on 'em up here in the frigid northland of KY if I tried to sell a bunch of colored Brahman-influenced cattle today - though at 1/4 Brahman, they didn't really have much extra ear or leather.

It'll take a while, but if you're looking to put a halfblood bull on your base cows/heifers, you may be better off 'breeding your own' - you may not be able to find exactly what you 'want'; but if you can select the sire that brings traits you desire to the table to breed to a few select cows, it improves your chances of getting what you're looking for.

 

[brihop]

Thanks Lucky. Several people have said that their simbrah influenced cows were some of the best they had. As much as I'd like to inject some Simbrah, I suppose it would be simplest and easiest to just breed the Angus cows to Brangus to get the heat tolerance I need and at the same time maintain a relatively uniform group. Eventually I'd like to have 1/4 Brahman blood in the cows. I'm still wondering if it would be better to breed to an F1 Brangus bull and get that 1/4 blood in the first calf crop, or would it be better to breed to a normal 3/8 blood Brangus and wait for two generations to get the 1/4 Brahman influence I want... I suppose availability/opportunity will be the deciding factor.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Thanks Lucky. Several people have said that their simbrah influenced cows were some of the best they had. As much as I'd like to inject some Simbrah, I suppose it would be simplest and easiest to just breed the Angus cows to Brangus to get the heat tolerance I need and at the same time maintain a relatively uniform group. Eventually I'd like to have 1/4 Brahman blood in the cows. I'm still wondering if it would be better to breed to an F1 Brangus bull and get that 1/4 blood in the first calf crop, or would it be better to breed to a normal 3/8 blood Brangus and wait for two generations to get the 1/4 Brahman influence I want... I suppose availability/opportunity will be the deciding factor.

it would be better to wait a couple generation to get there,, then spending several, trying to back to where you could have been...

 

[Massey135]

There is no place for f1 bulls. Use stabalized genetics!

 

[djinwa]

All this worrying about getting ear for heat tolerance when you have black cattle to begin with. Seems you could go red and get the same benefit, but then I don't know anything. I've been told that one can wear black in summer without being hotter.

I see your footnote says you would like more reds.

It is fascinating to me that the market still prefers black when they could just start promoting more heat tolerant colors and get more production benefits.

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2007 ... 1033.shtml

 

[ALACOWMAN]

All this worrying about getting ear for heat tolerance when you have black cattle to begin with. Seems you could go red and get the same benefit, but then I don't know anything. I've been told that one can wear black in summer without being hotter.

I see your footnote says you would like more reds.

It is fascinating to me that the market still prefers black when they could just start promoting more heat tolerant colors and get more production benefits.

http://www.cattletoday.com/archive/2007 ... 1033.shtml

the ablility to slick off and sweat, is a big plus..... most southern cattle are took to the stockyard, they get their check.. thats all the promoting they care about, the way promotion work's here a neigbor brings in a charolais bull.. then another neighbor brings in one..... take a laxative it works the whole area

 

[brihop]

yep, if I could snap my fingers and switch out what I have they'd be all red with 1/4 brahman in them. Thats what I personally think works the best. I don't care about the marketability of the black coat, I just ended up buying a few black angus... there are tons available. 4 of mine are solid red angus type though, but w/no brahman in them. If I come across a deal on any good reds I might make a big change out.

 

[u4411clb]

When all of you cattle men in AL, GA, SC, TN, FL, MS, LA get ready to get rid of your black cattle that just can't stand the heat. Please feel free to drop the black hided cattle that have been in the South in this heat for generations and have been able to go get it and produce a large calf in swamps, and heat and humidity, and can sweat and handle all the bugs and ticks down here, and can also survive and thrive on fungi infested fescue at my place. I will give you a nice check to go to South Dakota, Colorado, andf Kansas etc where you can go get your red cattle that according to you guys should out perform the ones you just sold me because they are red and should handle the heat better even though they have never been in heat and humidity or ever tasted fescue or seen a mosquito the size of the palm of your hand.

 

[gizmom]

This old cowgirl is gonna keep breeding black, we have been breeding them for over 20 years and they work in this enviornment. And beleive me it does get hot and humid in our part of the world.

Gizmom
http://www.gizmoangus.com