Breeding Back First Calvers?

[Stocker Steve]

What percent of your first calf heifers usually breed back?

Have you ever tried early weaning to increase the percentage?

 

[hillsdown]

100 % have bred back in my beef herd and at an 8 week breeding season or less . Would expect nothing less if you have a top notch mineral program and give them the nutrition they require to raise a calf. The younger the animal the more fertile they are or should be .

 

[vclavin]

100 % have bred back in my beef herd and at an 8 week breeding season or less . Would expect nothing less if you have a top notch mineral program and give them the nutrition they require to raise a calf. The younger the animal the more fertile they are or should be .

:nod:

 

[hillsdown]

Steve I forgot to add that unusual circumstances like a hard pull at birth because of an abnormally high birth weight or a case of assisted twins , they sometimes do have re breeding problems. I do not consider those the norm though and in dairy ,all bets were off when you had a heifer milking 100 + lbs a day at 2 months fresh ,not very often did they come into milk that heavy at that age, but it did happen and yes we would sometimes have re breeding issues.

 

[vclavin]

Steve I forgot to add that unusual circumstances like a hard pull at birth because of an abnormally high birth weight or a case of assisted twins , they sometimes do have re breeding problems. I do not consider those the norm though and in dairy ,all bets were off when you had a heifer milking 100 + lbs a day at 2 months fresh ,not very often did they come into milk that heavy at that age, but it did happen and yes we would sometimes have re breeding issues.

Hillsdown,
What does a gallon of milk weigh? I assume it could depend on milk fat too?
Valerie

 

[hillsdown]

Steve I forgot to add that unusual circumstances like a hard pull at birth because of an abnormally high birth weight or a case of assisted twins , they sometimes do have re breeding problems. I do not consider those the norm though and in dairy ,all bets were off when you had a heifer milking 100 + lbs a day at 2 months fresh ,not very often did they come into milk that heavy at that age, but it did happen and yes we would sometimes have re breeding issues.

Hillsdown,
What does a gallon of milk weigh? I assume it could depend on milk fat too?
Valerie

In Holsteins 100lbs a day would translate between 45 and 50 litres. A gallon is 3.8 litres, so 7.5 to 8 lbs . Yes, the more the fat the lighter the milk will weigh. I think :? :lol:

An imperial gallon 4.5 litres .

 

[JustSimmental]

What percent of your first calf heifers usually breed back?

100%
Have you ever tried early weaning to increase the percentage?

No and yes, because what I call early weaning is 5-6 months and our cattle are breeding back 60- 80 days post-calving.

This has been a problem since the beginning of time-- it's a pay now or pay later scheme, usually.Getting heifers is optimum condition for calving is a must. This means optimal Health and Nutrition pre-calving and this begins at conception and not 30 days pre-calving.

If you do bring your heifers into Pre-calving in a less than normal condition, it would pay you dividends to supplement them post-calving until you can get them bred. The other option is an extended breeding season, which brings less uniformity of your calf crop in future years. This option is a loser.

Staying on the side of moderation in both milk production and frame score will also pay dividends.

JS

 

[vclavin]

What percent of your first calf heifers usually breed back?

100%
Have you ever tried early weaning to increase the percentage?

No and yes, because what I call early weaning is 5-6 months and our cattle are breeding back 60- 80 days post-calving.

This has been a problem since the beginning of time-- it's a pay now or pay later scheme, usually.Getting heifers is optimum condition for calving is a must. This means optimal Health and Nutrition pre-calving and this begins at conception and not 30 days pre-calving.

If you do bring your heifers into Pre-calving in a less than normal condition, it would pay you dividends to supplement them post-calving until you can get them bred. The other option is an extended breeding season, which brings less uniformity of your calf crop in future years. This option is a loser.

Staying on the side of moderation in both milk production and frame score will also pay dividends.

JS

Everything I've read states put the weight on BEFORE calving as after they calve, all they eat goes to make milk not beter condition scores. True?
Valerie

 

[regolith]

this begins at conception

I think the intention is to say that getting good breeding results from heifers of 27 months old started 36 months previous. I've always said, you get one chance to raise a good cow, starting from birth (or conception, as it's put here, in managing the dam so that she births a healthy, live calf). If you do that right, fertility and condition and good health are all following along.
A heifer well grown from day one should be no harder to breed back than any other cow in the herd.

Valerie, if you've got an underweight cow three months before calving she needs as much good feed as she can handle - four weeks pre-calving is too late, the calf inside is too big to allow her to eat enough for weight gain. If she's not at optimum condition at calving she's going to be even less after calving regardless of how much you feed her (though a good diet will prevent excessive weight loss).
Plan to have her an an 'increasing plane of nutrition' going into mating - she'll be just past peak production and should be starting to gain weight. The increasing plane of nutrition optimises fertility, and so does being the right condition score, which goes back to what her condition was when the calf was weaned and whether or not she's managed to gain weight and retain that weight since.
Whether a cow partitions her intake more towards weight gain or milk depends on that individual.

 

[regolith]

That's what I get for not reading properly - I think I answered a slightly different question to what was asked but you get the idea.

 

[vclavin]

That's what I get for not reading properly - I think I answered a slightly different question to what was asked but you get the idea.

Yes I do , thank you... your explanation is much better than what I posted. It will have better meaning to the inexperienced. We do our best to make sure the girls are in good condition especially going into winter, I'm sure there's a few reading this, that the nutrition part hasn't crossed their minds yet. Or, someone has told them to just turn them out and let nature do it... uh huh... open cows here we come and probably skinny ones with sick calves. ooooo.
Glad you read it wrong lol.
Valerie

 

[Till-Hill]

Milk weighs 8.6 lbs a gallon. And on dairy cows first lactation right now I bred 10 on lute shot heats and stuck 5. They are today average the group out 138 days in milk, milking 87 lbs/day, and are 42 days pregnant.

On beef cows I just ran into this with the in-law side of the family. Not 1st calvers but older cows and they bred cows and they didn't repeat. Thought they were preg and weaned calves about 28 days post breeding. Well they all came up open. I'd say weaning stress caused it? I am waiting to confirm my cows preg before weaning and at least 45 days past breeding before I wean calves......

 

[Stocker Steve]

Some feel that if 100% breed back then you are overfeeding the herd and covering up poorly adapted animals. Not good nor bad - - just poorly adapted.

 

[MF135]

Some feel that if 100% breed back then you are overfeeding the herd and covering up poorly adapted animals. Not good nor bad - - just poorly adapted.

I agree 100%. As I stated in a previous post, hillsdown is the only person I've ever heard say they have a 100% breed back on first calf heifers.

After stating that previously, I went to reaffirm and asked two large scale commercial ranchers here locally about their %. Both ranches operate similarly as no animal gets a second chance. If they lose a calf or don't rebreed back, they're shipped. All females regardless of age are calved on pasture and provided the same nutrition and are expected to rebreed within 90 days. Both said they annually culled between 20-30% of first calvers bc of not breeding back within the alloted time.

 

[regolith]

Survival of the fittest is always a good method for improving a herd.

Now if you really want to cull on every genetic fault in your herd - don't even consider having crossbred mommas, all that hybrid vigour just masks everything.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I "expect" 100% rebreed from 1st calf heifers. As most posted, you cannot expect that unless the heifers are managed properly.
I have my most re-breed problems with 3-yr olds (2nd calvers). They are in the poorest BCS in the fall as 2 yr olds (nursing first calf, growing & cutting teeth). They are wintered with the 2-yr olds, but still don't put on as much BCS as needed. We get them bred in our "season", but they will be the tail-enders in the 60 days.

Some of you are indicating that you don't manage your heifers to be in good BCS at the time of conception & calving & that that is financially the best route. Well, I disagree. But, that's what makes our business interesting. Lots of different managements.

We get our replacement heifers in good BCS prior to breeding, turn out on grass & wintered on baleage (no suppliment other than mineral, after breeding).

We invest $50-$100/hd in corn with our replacements. But, some of that is offset by less hay consumed. With the investment of time to get replacements, I don't feel I can afford to sacrifice not getting them rebred due to BCS (management).

So, if I am "masking" problem cattle, I guess it would rear it's ugly head when they are 3 yr olds. So far, they are the hardest to get back into heat for rebreed, but generally looking at about 100%.
There's always the odd-ball problem breeder. Noone can say 100% rebreed. As Hillsdown said, hard calving, twins, etc. Or, just plain old poor breeder. They get shipped.

So, basically your question was to trip up posters, so you could say WE are managing wrong.
Like I said, different managment practices for different folks - and different areas.
I don't make money on "marginal" calves. And heifers that are managed marginally, give you marginal calves. I do not mean cows should be supplimented. I strongly believe once she is bred, she's a cow & needs to make a living on grass & hay. I just believe in giving them a good start.

 

[hillsdown]

Good post Jeanne .

Just wondering how you can over feed a cow when it is out in pasture ???
I had the highest ween weights and 100% pregnancy at preg check during the worst drought in 50 years in my area . NO CREAP and no extra feed ie grain they were all on pasture. The next year 100% bred back again with no creep and no extra feed. It is called management and culling all the crap out of your herd form day one.

Minerals, the right minerals make a heck of a difference in conception rates too. :tiphat:

 

[Amo]

8-15% open.

 

[angus9259]

Just wondering how you can over feed a cow when it is out in pasture ???

Not running enough cattle on the pasture.

Don't get me wrong, I'd say you have a GREAT thing going - always have when I've seen your pictures. But, PERHAPS, it could be better? I think the argument says that there is still a bottom 10% of your herd. So, if you push them harder by stocking higher, you'll find that bottom 10% because they won't breed back. Now, those bottom 10% might STILL be better than what 90% of the rest of us are running on breedback, but you'd find the bottom 10% that way.

It's also a tool for leveraging your genetics. If you've culled and optimized to the point where you have 100% breedback like that, running more head on your pasture will produce more calves. Your cattle are obviously quite efficient - the best way to take advantage of those efficiencies is to feed less (stock higher)

That's the ARGUMENT - I'm not saying I agree with it to the Nth degree like that, but that's the argument.

 

[JustSimmental]

What percent of your first calf heifers usually breed back?

100%
Have you ever tried early weaning to increase the percentage?

No and yes, because what I call early weaning is 5-6 months and our cattle are breeding back 60- 80 days post-calving.

This has been a problem since the beginning of time-- it's a pay now or pay later scheme, usually. Getting heifers is optimum condition for calving is a must. This means optimal Health and Nutrition pre-calving and this begins at conception and not 30 days pre-calving.

If you do bring your heifers into Pre-calving in a less than normal condition, it would pay you dividends to supplement them post-calving until you can get them bred. The other option is an extended breeding season, which brings less uniformity of your calf crop in future years. This option is a loser.

Staying on the side of moderation in both milk production and frame score will also pay dividends.

JS

Everything I've read states put the weight on BEFORE calving as after they calve, all they eat goes to make milk not beter condition scores. True?
Valerie

Thats really not true --to me-- not everything will or does go to milk production--- much does, but you can improve condition scores a lot post-calving.

Pre-calving -- anytime you are feeding a heifer in her last trimester, you are a taking a risk on calving difficulties. I'd rather she calved un-assisted even a lil under-conditioned than be out there pulling calves at midnight.

Also a lot depends on your calving season, too; normally calves are bigger in the Spring than they are in the Fall