Breech Births, 7mth Abortions

[Loch Valley Fold]

This year in our dairy cows we are losing about 25% of our calves. We've been lucky enough to be able to save a few of the breech births by catching the cows in time, they are also being born back legs first, they cows are aborting at about 7 - 8mths. It's got to the stage that we have added a bull to run with the dry cows. just in case they abort & we miss them. We've vaccinated for Lepto & Vibiro & have been in constant contact with our vet. I'm now wondering if it just the drought & the dry weather - (nature's way of reducing numbers?) Would minerals / vitamins lick blocks help. I know that it is not only us but a couple of beef farms have been having the same problem.

 

[rockridgecattle]

have you posted the dead calves? Tested the herd for BVD BRD or IBR? Something they are eating such as moldy hay?

 

[LoveMoo11]

A 25% loss doesn't sound natural or normal, especially with the abortions being late ones! Your vet doesn't have any ideas? It may be a good idea to get a second opinion and get some testing done on the dead calves.

 

[Angus Cowman]

I would have the calves posted as for the cows what BCS are they in could me nutritional or a mineral deficiency or like was stated a feed problem
But the first thing is to have some test run on the aborted fetus may cost a little but is alot cheaper than a dead calf
also they need mineral yr round

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

Thanks for the advice
body Score: would be between 3 -4
Feed: 11 - 12% pellets, some green grass & hay (milkers) & recieve a liquid mineral supplement in water
Dry Cows: have access to a mineral block & they recieve about 500kg (1100lbs) of hay every 2 days
I didn't think to get the calves tested so that will be done on the next calf born dead. Last year we 100% live births & only lost 2 calves so this year is a head scratcher.
Anyone with any more ideas or advice please let me know

 

[KNERSIE]

Abortions at 7 months will always ring the alarm for brucellosis, definately have the next calf tested also have the cows that aborted tested for both brucellosis and BVD and whatever else your vet suggests. I am a little surprised your vet hasn't already insisted on running tests.

Isn't there a state vet that could get involved? It seems a wide spread epidemic and if the risk of brucellosis is there it would be in the interest of all parties to get a hold on the situation before it spreads further.

Good luck, I think you're going to need it.

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

At first our vet thought that it was just "one of those law of averages" thing that happens 1 or 2 abortions nothing too serious. It was our vet that suggested vaccinating for Vibrio & we have always vaccinated our calves with 7in1 which covers Lepto. After talking with her again today she has suggested that we get in touch with the rlpb (rural lands protection board) Vet & get him to come out & take blood & urine tests from the herd as well as testing any dead calves that are born. So talking to the rural lands vet tomorrow & going on from there. If it is something serious than I want to get on top of it asap before we lose too many calves. Although our vet did say that if it was lepto or vibrio than we can still loose calves up until the vaccinations kick in.
On a side note we are a closed herd, have been since we started milking 5yrs ago so we haven't brought in anything that could have been transfered.

 

[jilleroo]

I don't know about the late abortions, but we had a run of breech births in our mature age cows about seven years ago, just for the one season. Different paddocks, different sires. Once we started mentioning it, we were surprised that other people were experiencing the same problem. We have had the odd heifer with a breech calf since, (which we have saved) but have not seen one dead cow because of a breech birth. (Ooops - shouldn't have said that - tomorrow I'll go out and you know what I'll find!!) I wonder if the calves were bigger that year and the cows were not able to push out a breech calf when they might normally be able to? Big charolais cows.
Another year, several heifers tore between the two back passages when calving. They survived to rear the calves but were then sold. Have not seen that happen since then either.

 

[grannysoo]

25% abortion rate is way too high.....

If your vet can't figure this one out, find another vet.

 

[dyates]

At first our vet thought that it was just "one of those law of averages" thing that happens 1 or 2 abortions nothing too serious. It was our vet that suggested vaccinating for Vibrio & we have always vaccinated our calves with 7in1 which covers Lepto. After talking with her again today she has suggested that we get in touch with the rlpb (rural lands protection board) Vet & get him to come out & take blood & urine tests from the herd as well as testing any dead calves that are born. So talking to the rural lands vet tomorrow & going on from there. If it is something serious than I want to get on top of it asap before we lose too many calves. Although our vet did say that if it was lepto or vibrio than we can still loose calves up until the vaccinations kick in.
On a side note we are a closed herd, have been since we started milking 5yrs ago so we haven't brought in anything that could have been transfered.

Why wait so late for vaccines? Did you have abortions before the vaccines? Depending on the vaccines used, it is possible they could be causing the abortions.

 

[Keren]

At first our vet thought that it was just "one of those law of averages" thing that happens 1 or 2 abortions nothing too serious. It was our vet that suggested vaccinating for Vibrio & we have always vaccinated our calves with 7in1 which covers Lepto. After talking with her again today she has suggested that we get in touch with the rlpb (rural lands protection board) Vet & get him to come out & take blood & urine tests from the herd as well as testing any dead calves that are born. So talking to the rural lands vet tomorrow & going on from there. If it is something serious than I want to get on top of it asap before we lose too many calves. Although our vet did say that if it was lepto or vibrio than we can still loose calves up until the vaccinations kick in.
On a side note we are a closed herd, have been since we started milking 5yrs ago so we haven't brought in anything that could have been transfered.

Any vet that is to lazy to come out to your farm and collect blood and urine and fecal test and necropsying calves is a crappy vet. She should be ashamed of herself and not be allowed to practice veterinary medicine. It sounds to me like she is one of those vets that prefers to do small animals and does not really give a rats butt about large animals as there is no money in it. Find yourself another vet if you want my opinion. It also sounds to me like this vet doesnt know her butt from a hole in the ground and is afraid to ante up and give a good diagnosis as she has no clue what is going on and does not want to sound like an idiot when she opens her mouth.

Bax ... a situation like this is the rlpb's job ... sounds to me like the vet in this case is doing the responsible thing and referring Loch onto someone with a higher level of expertise and who is better suited to the situation.

 

[hillsdown]

It could be so many things. Good luck and I hope you find the reason and are able to contain it.

Friends of ours who milk 300 head are going through some what the same thing. The vets have determined BVD so all are being ear-notched and a lot of heavy culling is going on as well as vaccinating of course.

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

Haven't been able to get on here yesterday

Bax ... a situation like this is the rlpb's job ... sounds to me like the vet in this case is doing the responsible thing and referring Loch onto someone with a higher level of expertise and who is better suited to the situation.

Yes that is what we're doing now getting the rlpb vet to come out & test the cows that have aborted I'm hoping that he will test the enitre herd & I'd also throw in the bulls for testing too if I think it could help.

Why wait so late for vaccines? Did you have abortions before the vaccines? Depending on the vaccines used, it is possible they could be causing the abortions.

In a dairy herd if you vaccinate the cows as they dried off (as we did) not all cows will have say a 305day lactation some could go say 400days before dry off its these cows that have no protection against the lepto. Once I found that out we blanket vaccinated the entire herd,dry cows, springers, heifers ect the initial needle than 6 weeks later for the 2nd it was this that I was refering to. I don't think the vaccines have anything to with the abortions as we have used the same brand for years & have never had a problem.

It wasn't until I was going through the bookwork that I keep for the herd that I noticed a higher than normal percentage for stillborn calves, breech/back births, early calving, abortions or ufo calves.

 

[Keren]

Bax ... we have several diff. organisations and the rlpb yes, will deal with multiple herd abortions, multiple cases preg tox, footrot etc basically anything which is suddenly present in a herd at a higher than normal level. They deal with it on a whole herd basis.

We have a different bunch of people who deal with emergency and exotic diseases, including Johnes, FMD or BSE god forbid if we ever get it, EI, contagious agalactica, brucellosis etc.

So I will repeat, yes it is the rlpb job to help Loch out with these abortions, and his vet was doing the right thing.

 

[KNERSIE]

Not unless it is an inefectious disease does the usda have to come out. I can understand them coming out for Johnes, Foot and Mouth, BSE etc. But for some abortions? Come on!

Brucelosis is also called CA, care to guess what the "c" stands for?

CONTAGIOUS abortion

 

[Keren]

Not unless it is an inefectious disease does the usda have to come out. I can understand them coming out for Johnes, Foot and Mouth, BSE etc. But for some abortions? Come on!

Brucelosis is also called CA, care to guess what the "c" stands for?

CONTAGIOUS abortion

thanks Knersie, I didnt know that.

As far as I know, brucellosis is supposed to be eradicated from Australian cattle, so it SHOULDNT be that but ...

Here's hoping its nothing nasty for you, Loch

 

[Loch Valley Fold]

Not unless it is an inefectious disease does the usda have to come out. I can understand them coming out for Johnes, Foot and Mouth, BSE etc. But for some abortions? Come on!

I guess that is the difference between Australia & the US we can get our government vets to come out & do tests before it becomes a notifiable or infectious diease.
Now getting back to the subject
We had the rlpb vet out today, he took blood from 10 cows that we sorted out + blood from 5 calves & we had another calf (full term) born dead so he took loads of samples for testing I have never seen an autposy performed before it was interesting to watch (from a distance). At this stage the thinking is it could be Pestivirus as it is in the area with confirmed cases only about a 10 minute drive from us or neosprum (sp?) this spread by dogs or foxes won't know for sure until at the earliest mid next week.
Jane

 

[Keren]

Jane, I'm very sorry.

We have had pestivirus tear through the greys and it is a (female dog). We had all early abortions though.

 

[dun]

Pestivirus is widespread in Australia, mainly in cattle. Some adult cattle are immune to the disease, while others are life-long carriers. If a foetus becomes infected within the first three to four months of gestation then it will fail to develop antibodies towards the virus. In these cases the animals often die before birth or shortly after.

Symptoms of Pestivirus infection include diarrhoea, respiratory problems and bleeding disorders.

Pestivirus vaccines exist and the correct vaccine strain should be given, depending on the herd's location and the endemic strain in that region. This vaccination must be given regularly to maintain immunity.

 

[Keren]

If the cow is infected late in the pregnancy the calf will appear normal but be a silent carrier. For a few years way way back people thought this was the answer to the pestivirus problem, get yourself a cow who is a silent carrier, she can then infect your herd and they will all get immunity. Crazy, and one of the reasons it is such a problem.

Bax ... yes, it is BVD. As in, the pestivirus causes BVD, among other things.