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Bought some semen today.

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Lbass

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With my goals for the farm, I've been looking to bring the size of the cows down and make them easier fleshing, hoping that will improving fertility and longevity. Trying to get this herd to year round grazing and I believe these bulls may help.

When visiting peoples farms that manage similar to mine. I like there cows, but It's hard for me to like the bulls after years of running large terminal sires and buying replacement heifers. I guess if I like the cows, I'll learn to like a smaller bull.
HerefordsScreenshot_20201117-202518.pngScreenshot_20201117-185537.pngScreenshot_20201117-190418.png
I also bought a few straws of a Red Angus and a Pharo composite. Maybe in 3-4 years I wont feel like to big an idiot.
 

Hpacres440p

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Downsizing is not a bad thing. I like my 8 oz ribeye from my Aberdeen crosses.
 

Son of Butch

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With my goals for the farm, I've been looking to bring the size of the cows down and make them easier fleshing, hoping that will improving fertility and longevity. Trying to get this herd to year round grazing and I believe these bulls may help.

When visiting peoples farms that manage similar to mine. I like their cows...
Sound reasoning.
 
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Lbass

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Really like the PCC Axel bull.
Interesting you know that, considering it was the bull without a name listed.
I also bought Herdquitter, 1 of the red angus and the Diamond composite bull for a test.
Have you used him, or just like him?
 
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Lbass

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@Lbass why the change to make your own replacements? Why not buy smaller frame replacements from someone that manages similar to you and use terminal sires on them?
Simple answer, they can't be found, and if they are they are not at a reasonable price. And if they were found, they still wont be as adapted to the forage base as one raised here.

Roughly speaking, if I bring in a group of cattle, 30% will be gone before the 2nd calf hits the ground. Another 30% before the 3rd. Those that are here after that, will be the cows that last. I'm constantly bleeding cash bringing in cattle.

I already hold calves until they are ~15months. Might as well turn the bull in on all heifers for a short season. Blood test and sell the others for feeders before Sept 1 so they arent eating my fall stockpile growth.
 

Stocker Steve

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Interesting you know that, considering it was the bull without a name listed.
I also bought Herdquitter, 1 of the red angus and the Diamond composite bull for a test.
Have you used him, or just like him?
PCC used Axel for a short period, before he escaped to Canada about 3 years ago. I will be using some of his semen next summer.

I also have one PCC composite bull, and about 20 of his heifer calves. They have a thick fleshy look.
 
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Ky hills

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Those bulls are good looking as individuals. I have often thought about the concept of running smaller frame cows, I actually prefer smaller cows. Our markets though are very unforgiving of anything under say frame 5 animals and even those if they are perceived as fleshy. I kept back some moderate bulls to retain heifers from and am kind of concerned about how the steers will not reach full potential of the cows. I recently brought in a Simmental bull to use in addition to the home raised Angus and white faced bulls.
 

FungusProudKY31

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Those bulls are good looking as individuals. I have often thought about the concept of running smaller frame cows, I actually prefer smaller cows. Our markets though are very unforgiving of anything under say frame 5 animals and even those if they are perceived as fleshy. I kept back some moderate bulls to retain heifers from and am kind of concerned about how the steers will not reach full potential of the cows. I recently brought in a Simmental bull to use in addition to the home raised Angus and white faced bulls.

I just moved some bull calves like into the category of steers for a grassfed producer deal yesterday. They do well in that emphasis but cost me $150+ on discounts in the barn. This came out of the blue as a assumed CE bull for heifers was from good sized parents and grew well but he left a set of calves that look like bookends with FS4. He rode off into the sunset and all of his sons will, too. Such a waste from the unexplained.

Small framed cows look good and make good talk. But once you set small frame in a herd it is nearly impossible to get it out. It just costs too much to have pasture ornaments.
 

Ky hills

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I just moved some bull calves like into the category of steers for a grassfed producer deal yesterday. They do well in that emphasis but cost me $150+ on discounts in the barn. This came out of the blue as a assumed CE bull for heifers was from good sized parents and grew well but he left a set of calves that look like bookends with FS4. He rode off into the sunset and all of his sons will, too. Such a waste from the unexplained.

Small framed cows look good and make good talk. But once you set small frame in a herd it is nearly impossible to get it out. It just costs too much to have pasture ornaments.
That’s what I’ve always thought too, been there with calves from a mainstream pedigree CE bull too. We took a yearling bull to the stockyards monthly cow sale last year and they talked us out of running him through because he was small frame. Took him home and ran him a few more months then sold him as a feeder. Even though I prefer smaller cows, our cows are mostly 1400+ to 1600lbs mature weights. I will not use an AI bull or buy a herd bull under a frame 5.5 and prefer a 6-7. The concept of smaller cattle does sound good but I can’t make it figure.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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A small cow takes just as much TIME as a big cow - a poor one takes just as much time as a good one. But, a small cow will not produce a calf that will smash the scales. You need to have your own private market - ie freezer beef for all your small frame calves or you will get slaughtered at the sale barn.
You do not need to make smaller cows for fertility or easier fleshing. This is not accomplished by size - it has more to do with STYLE of cattle. You need big barreled cows that can survive on hay and grass. You can have the same style cow that is a FS3 or FS6. Making them smaller does not ensure you will have easier keepers. My cows range from 5.5 to 6.5, all easy keepers. A cow that is not an easy keeper doesn't survive my management or cull criteria.
 

KAstocker

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Part of the point of smaller frame cows is you can run more of them. Bigger doesn't mean more profitable. 127-1100 lb cows is probably more profitable than 100-1400 lb cows (same total weight). To keep things simple, say all cows wean a calf. The 1400 pounders wean a 600 lb calf. The 1100 pounders wean a 500 lb calf. The 1100 pounders wean 63,500 lbs total. The 1400 pounders wean 60,000 lbs total likely at a lower price.
 

Ky hills

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Part of the point of smaller frame cows is you can run more of them. Bigger doesn't mean more profitable. 127-1100 lb cows is probably more profitable than 100-1400 lb cows (same total weight). To keep things simple, say all cows wean a calf. The 1400 pounders wean a 600 lb calf. The 1100 pounders wean a 500 lb calf. The 1100 pounders wean 63,500 lbs total. The 1400 pounders wean 60,000 lbs total likely at a lower price.
I understand the logic behind being able to run more smaller cows. It’s a marketing strategy, that makes sounds very logical and simple. It’s not quite that cut and dry though and the larger framed calves will not necessarily bring less per lb. If all is equal then yes a calf 100 lbs larger will bring less per lb than a lighter calf of comparable frame and condition. In my figures I am supposing that the 600 lb calves from the 1400lbs cows will be larger framed and the calves from the 1100 lb ones will be smaller framed thus may bring similar or less per lb than the larger ones. That would have them totaling similar or less money even though there is more of them. If they are the least bit fleshy then that is additional dock. That’s just the way I see it, not knocking anyone’s ideas if somebody is making that work that’s good.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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@Ky hills that is correct. Plus, Universities pushed hard for everyone to have smaller cows (more cows/acres) - but, after research it kinda blew some of what they were preaching out the window. Maintenance is not as "linear" as they thought. For example: a 1000# cow does not eat half as much as a 2000# cow. Big exaggeration, but you see what I mean.
Also, every cow, whether 1000# or 2000# has to be calved out, checked/treated for health/foot issues, heats if breeding AI (or breeding with a bull and you want calving dates), more expense per herd for vaccines, more cattle to work thru chute, etc etc. More cows per acres did not pencil out as more profitable as they once thought. Worming will cost you more, I will grant you that.
Yeah, I raise Simmental, but now a days, they are no bigger than most good PB British herds.
I wean my steers, precondition them. They will average 8.5 months of age. This year they averaged 706# X $1.45 = $1,024. That will pay a lot of extra deworming expenses. And that's not counting the ones I sold as show steers for $1500 - sorry, couldn't help bragging.
Not trying to talk anyone out of going for what they want to look at and work with, just pointing out facts.

“The most efficient cow is the one with the highest milk potential that can — without reducing the percentage of calves successfully weaned — repeatedly produce a calf by bulls with the growth and carcass characteristics valued most in the marketplace,” Johnson says. “The industry can absorb all sizes. We don't need better cow sizes for our managers; we need better managers for our cows. Know your operation well and manage it to the best of your ability. It's the most important thing you can do.”
"In theory, they say, bigger animals have an advantage because they use energy more efficiently. For instance, says Jennifer Johnson, a graduate student at the King Ranch, 100 cows that weigh 1,000 pounds each are equal to 87 cows that weigh 1,200 pounds each in terms of maintenance feed requirements. That means bigger cows have 20% more weight but only take 13% more feed."
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Part of the point of smaller frame cows is you can run more of them. Bigger doesn't mean more profitable. 127-1100 lb cows is probably more profitable than 100-1400 lb cows (same total weight). To keep things simple, say all cows wean a calf. The 1400 pounders wean a 600 lb calf. The 1100 pounders wean a 500 lb calf. The 1100 pounders wean 63,500 lbs total. The 1400 pounders wean 60,000 lbs total likely at a lower price.
Did want to point out that your example shows the 1400# cow weaning 43% of her body weight and the 1000# cow weaning 45% of her bw. That makes a 1270# advantage in your example
BTW - my cows avg 1510#. WW "is" important to me - but - quality is much more important (looks, fertility, structure, and easy keeping . I don't make my profits based on my steers. And I wouldn't have the quality without using the right bulls.
 

FungusProudKY31

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Count small framed cows on your toes and fingers. But go to the barn and see small framed calves sell for $150 to $250 dock due to FS and the "happily ever after" gets erased. Bonsma emphasized feed efficiency. You'd be better off with a FE 1250 -2350 pound cow than the SM cow that supposedly eats less. Prices are NOT the same on all FS calves. The bigger ones sell much better.
 

KAstocker

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Say the 600# large frame brings $155. The 500# smaller frame would only need to bring $146 to match the total price of the large frames. Large frame 500# calves would bring $167 with a $0.95 VOG. I'm having a hard time believing the dock would be all the way to $146.

How far do you go? Why not get some 1700# cows? I think most would agree there's an optimum mature size for a cow, we may just disagree what that optimum weight is.
 

CowsRcuddly

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I just moved some bull calves like into the category of steers for a grassfed producer deal yesterday. They do well in that emphasis but cost me $150+ on discounts in the barn. This came out of the blue as a assumed CE bull for heifers was from good sized parents and grew well but he left a set of calves that look like bookends with FS4. He rode off into the sunset and all of his sons will, too. Such a waste from the unexplained.

Small framed cows look good and make good talk. But once you set small frame in a herd it is nearly impossible to get it out. It just costs too much to have pasture ornaments.
Yes, Feedlots don't want Puds. They finish out smaller weights and end up with too much outer fat.
 

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