Beef cow efficiency (New Mexico State University)

[WalnutCrest]

Interesting article

 

[Ebenezer]

Scientists at the University of Nebraska (Montano-Bermudez et al., 1990) have estimated maintenance requirements for cows with low, moderate, and high levels of milk production during gestation and lactation. Requirements were calculated per unit of body weight, with Hereford x Angus (lowest milking potential) having the lowest requirements, and the moderate- and high-milking females breeds? or crosses? having similar but higher requirements.

Newest study was 1994 for reference. Mentioned the most important production trait at the end: fertility to breed and rebreed. Forgot the mention the most important marketing trait all together: buyer acceptance. I agree that high milk is a waste yet the big data most folks want to tell or checkout in the new bulls? Weaning weight. Weaning weight = high percent influence of milk production. So good to chase more or a good idea to decide what your environment and management will produce with acceptable breed back and then keep working to curb feed cost. It is for me.

Funny with MM EPDs so high now on Angus, would the baldie cows now be low milk?

Opinion: when in doubt, go average unless you want a basketball team.

 

[Cross-7]

I saw that on FB yesterday.
Milk production is a double edge sword in arid area's from my experience.
Too much milk and the cows really get pulled down. Too little milk and the calves just don't do well.

The comparison between the low milking vs high milking. I'd like to have seen the difference in weaning weight.

Depending on the year you can cake the cows (moderate milking) to help them out or even wean a little early and grow the calves off the cow.

Being in an arid environment is tough. It takes lots of acres and the less the cows see each other the better, but in a wetter environment with large amounts of high moisture forage the bigger high milking cows would be better suited IMO

 

[Nutmegger]

Thank you, Walnut, for posting this. It is very interesting. I spent a few hours reading the linked article and references cited in the linked article, and I finished by telling myself I need to re-read all of it to absorb more details. That's the sign of an excellent post!

Ebenezer makes an excellent point about the fallacy of pairing a high milk EPD to a forage base that may not support it. And now I'm trying to sort out the possibility of mismatching an ADG EPD to a forage base. I've generally sought out modest birth weights with high growth rates, but I'm wondering if I've inadvertantly made the mistake to which Ebenezer referred?

Finally, Cross-7, can you expand on this phrase from your comment: "...the less cows see each other the better". I think I understand the comment, but I'm trying to reconcile it with the idea of higher herd density & short duration grazing vis-a-vis the Savory Holistic Management system.

Thanks, all, for the interesting post and comments.

 

[cotton1]

The article is supported by older research, but makes some good points. I know that very high milking cows require more feed stuff available in some fashion.I have noted this in my own pastures. I have been known to use some high milk, high maternal EPD blood lines. I used to select for cattle in this priority: 1. CED 2. BW 3.MCE 4.Milk 5.WW 6. YW as far as EPDs are concerned. Sometimes the cow will have a better or similar EPD than another at a sale or in a catalog, both with lower WW/YW EPD but one will have a 700lb calf and the other maybe a 500lb calf. I cant help but believe that the available feed was either not as nutritious or not as abundant. Today I am very satisfied with a cows EPD at or slightly above breed average. I am finding that there is a type of cow out there that is smaller and easy keeping that will milk well enough-and breed back.Outside of the box selection is required for that.
With today's efforts in science, i keep hoping that an EPD becomes available for feed efficiency. Seems like the eye test is most reliable again. So, I take away a little smaller, easier keeper with mid range milk is ideal in respect to produce given per input used per cow. And as a bonus, that type will be more fertile adding even more value. So where does this information leave a producer who is looking at purchasing a new bull? Or maybe just AI bull selection? I also don't understand how to correlate carcass EPDs to performance in the pasture.
Looks to me that everything in moderation is best.Outside the box here I think means selecting for median range on most EPDs. Doubt if many folks look for the average bull at the sale. From what I see folks want the gusto on WW and Milk. My opinion is that is the reason cattle today are larger in general than they used to be.

 

[Ebenezer]

high milk, high maternal EPD blood lines

A dichotomy of thought. East versus West. Hot versus Cold. High milk is not maternal. Adequate milk is maternal.

High milk = Calf production towards terminal traits to the detriment of the cow's fertility. Energy allocation of the cow has a set protocol. Last to next to last place of allocation: reproduction.

High maternal is seeking the most influential trait in the livestock business for economic return: fertility of the female to breed and rebred while the female has sound functional and convenience traits to raise her offspring.

Economics is key. Money makes the mare trot.

 

[cotton1]

Ebeneezer-What of my cattle that have BOTH high milk AND high maternal EPDs? I have several of those. My cattle milk well, AND breed back well. I understand the idea of maternal, or milk,but there can be both. There should be both. A good cow should raise her calf, and get pregnant while she does it right? Do they need extra foodstuff? I'm sure they do. The only way I see to make them better is to retain the milk ability, and fertility and reduce input needed by reducing overall size of the mature cow. High growth EPDs stacked are going to make larger cattle. Median growth EPDs are probably going to make cattle the same as the parents or vary a little either way but not very much in my opinion. Just saying that the larger the cow, the more input she requires most likely, but not always. The more she milks the more input required, but not always. The ones that will do it all are few and far I admit. Overall, I just believe a 1200lb cow can be productive in all facets with less input than a 1800lb cow.
The irony to me is, that I want to reduce the size of my cattle over time because I want to run more cows per acre. The cows that I have found with both high milk and high maternal EPDs have been needle in a haystack to find. They all tend to be 1700-2000lb cows in my experiences.That does not give me much faith in the EPD system. I know what Ebeneezer is saying is right, not arguing, just thinking out loud I guess. Seems to select for median EPDs are best, but I know that I cant sell median EPD calves. Money does make the mare trot, indeed.

 

[Faraway]

Cotton, I don't think Eb is talking about high milk EPD vs high maternal EPD. I'm not sure what the value of the maternal EPD is, since its just the sum of the milk EPD and 1/2 of the weaning weight EPD. And you got it right I think- the cows that are high milk EPD and high maternal EPD are very likely to be big growthy cows that are more in the line of cornfed higher maintenance cows. I doubt Eb would consider these high maternal EPD cows to be "highly maternal" cows.

 

[Ebenezer]

I doubt Eb would consider these high maternal EPD cows to be "highly maternal" cows.

Right. No free lunches.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Ebeneezer-What of my cattle that have BOTH high milk AND high maternal EPDs? I have several of those. My cattle milk well, AND breed back well. I understand the idea of maternal, or milk,but there can be both. There should be both. A good cow should raise her calf, and get pregnant while she does it right? Do they need extra foodstuff? I'm sure they do. The only way I see to make them better is to retain the milk ability, and fertility and reduce input needed by reducing overall size of the mature cow. High growth EPDs stacked are going to make larger cattle. Median growth EPDs are probably going to make cattle the same as the parents or vary a little either way but not very much in my opinion. Just saying that the larger the cow, the more input she requires most likely, but not always. The more she milks the more input required, but not always. The ones that will do it all are few and far I admit. Overall, I just believe a 1200lb cow can be productive in all facets with less input than a 1800lb cow.
The irony to me is, that I want to reduce the size of my cattle over time because I want to run more cows per acre. The cows that I have found with both high milk and high maternal EPDs have been needle in a haystack to find. They all tend to be 1700-2000lb cows in my experiences.That does not give me much faith in the EPD system. I know what Ebeneezer is saying is right, not arguing, just thinking out loud I guess. Seems to select for median EPDs are best, but I know that I cant sell median EPD calves. Money does make the mare trot, indeed.

Growth rate is different than early maturity.

You want animals that grow who also mature sexually early.

There are (fairly intuitive) ways to select for both that don't involve shipping a sample to a lab or using mathematical models to estimate future productivity.

 

[Nesikep]

At risk of sounding like a broken record.. I gotta say it again
I think the milk EPD has to be matched to the forage you have... To an extent, the smaller cow usually makes a little less milk than the bigger cow.. having a smaller cow that doesn't have the genetics to milk well on lush pastures is a waste of feed.. She'll eat like a pig and won't make milk out of it.. just get fat... The inverse is equally true.. The big, high milking cow on bunchgrass is going to milk herself to death (well, infertility).

What gets me is pretty much every bull catalog or breed touts their animals as "do it all" types, and perhaps they fool some people, but I just don't think it's possible.. There are just too many different types of environments out there for that to be true.

What I'd be curious in seeing is the ratio of weaning weight to mature weight of calves.. because in essence, that's what most of us are striving for.. not too big a cow that raises a big calf.. It's easy to have big cows raise big calves.

I'm just a guy fiddling around with a few mutt cows trying to find what works for me.. I have decent pastures, I could manage them more intensively if I cared to compound my workload, but I'm busy enough. I've identified a few outstanding animals, and with any luck I can increase the percentage of them. Last year Chroma, one of my smaller (frame 5/1200 lb?) 4 year old cows had the biggest steer of the bunch, 625 lbs @ 170 days.. I want more of those.

Getting back to efficiency, I don't look at efficiency as just a product of cow size, there's far more to it than that... One thing I've been studying is how many times they chew cud, and it's effects on the amount of coarse fiber in the manure.. My most efficient cows seem to chew each mouthful of cud 50-70 times, and thus have less coarse matter in the manure.. Other cows are 'lazy' and only chew 30-50 times.... Surprise surprise, the cows that chew more *seem* to eat less and make better calves. I have yet to determine if it's a genetic thing, or if it's a learned trait.

 

[Ebenezer]

You want animals that grow who also mature sexually early.

If the heifers will breed at 15 months old and the bulls will breed cows at 15 months old I do not need them to mature any earlier to be a smaller framed animal. No proof that I know of that a heifer that will breed at 7 months old and her male sib who will be short boned will be any better. New slogan for the next day or two: Commodity or oddity - we are either breeding one or the other. :?

 

[WalnutCrest]

You want animals that grow who also mature sexually early.

If the heifers will breed at 15 months old and the bulls will breed cows at 15 months old I do not need them to mature any earlier to be a smaller framed animal. No proof that I know of that a heifer that will breed at 7 months old and her male sib who will be short boned will be any better. New slogan for the next day or two: Commodity or oddity - we are either breeding one or the other. :?

That's a helpful clarification.

By "early" I mean when I turn out the bull and the youngest heifer is 12-13 months old, she better get bred in the next two months or so...

Having heifers that breed up at 7mo is a great way to end up with a pasture of trainwrecks.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Getting back to efficiency, I don't look at efficiency as just a product of cow size, there's far more to it than that... One thing I've been studying is how many times they chew cud, and it's effects on the amount of coarse fiber in the manure.. My most efficient cows seem to chew each mouthful of cud 50-70 times, and thus have less coarse matter in the manure.. Other cows are 'lazy' and only chew 30-50 times.... Surprise surprise, the cows that chew more *seem* to eat less and make better calves. I have yet to determine if it's a genetic thing, or if it's a learned trait.

Things that make you go HMMMMM.

 

[cotton1]

Fascinating posts here. I am going hmmmm. I always thought 13 MO and 800+ lbs or don't breed. Probably OK if she cycles early, but I am in control of when I expose her to breed. Are implications that if she matures early she must be fertile? 12+15 months to me isn't early. Nesikep- you are making me feel like a bad herdsman. I have no idea how many times my cows chew their cud. I like your theory. The more nutrition she derives from what she has taken in should mean she needs to take in less volume. You having correlated the chewing to the manure is proof of a better rendering by the cow- that's efficient. Interesting observations

 

[WalnutCrest]

<snip> I always thought 13 MO and 800+ lbs or don't breed. Probably OK if she cycles early, but I am in control of when I expose her to breed. Are implications that if she matures early she must be fertile? 12+15 months to me isn't early. <snip>

I should have been more precise in my post above --- the implications are that if, when you expose your heifers (ages 12-15 months) to the bull for a short-ish breeding season (say 45-65 days) and they don't get bred, you shouldn't keep them around. These animals are sub-fertile and eliminating the sub-fertile animals from a herd will improve its profitability. If your herd is already there and you're feeding your heifers quite a bit to get them big enough to cycle on time, cut back on your feed and see if you can get them there on grass / hay alone. The fewer inputs you need to give your cattle in order to get them to breed up at 12-15 months the more fertile the herd. To determine which cows are most fertile, figure out the calving interval between their first and second calves (both of which must have been born unassisted) and adjust for their age at the time of their first calf -- the shortest adjusted interval is the most fertile female in her contemporary group. Ideally, you should only ever keep / buy bulls out of cows who were in the top 10-20% of their contemporary group. Never keep / buy a bull out of a heifer/cow who's sub-fertile!

Regarding heifer weights ... Transova told us last year when we were considering flushing a heifer (long story; usually, flushing heifers is a pretty stupid idea) that she would start cycling right around 600lbs. The day they noticed her first heat, they weighed her; she was 606lbs (if memory serves me). They've seen that as an important milestone -- 600lbs -- in 'normal' sized beef and dairy breeds. So, apparently, once a heifer is around 40-60% of her mature weight, she will start to cycle. So, either your 800lb'ers were cycling a couple hundred pounds earlier ... or your cattle are freakishly huge.

 

[Ebenezer]

So, apparently, once a heifer is around 40-60% of her mature weight, she will start to cycle.

Not hard & fast rule. Different cattle: different growth curves. Different herds: different feed and management. A lighter good heifer is a better bet at bull turnout than a proper weight fat good heifer.

 

[Nesikep]

I spend more time with my cows than most people.. once in a while I'll lean back on them while they're laying down chewing, and you get their rhythm... I may be the freak here

I have no use for heifers that cycle at 6 months of age... it just leads to too many 'uh oh' calves... about 10 months is about a good target I think, but as long as they breed in the first or second cycle when the bull is released, I am not going to worry too much.. I haven't seen any significant correlation between those that come into heat freakishly early and conception rates further on

That is one of my concerns with this Limo bull I have now... Late puberty and BIG cows.. it works great for a terminal sire, but of the 4 heifers I have, I only really like 2 of them, which is why I'm going to see how I like the calves of my homegrown bull and perhaps sell the Limo after this breeding season.

 

[Ebenezer]

I spend more time with my cows than most people.. once in a while I'll lean back on them while they're laying down chewing, and you get their rhythm... I may be the freak here

The cow whisperer! You are not just looking - you are seeing.

 

[WalnutCrest]

So, apparently, once a heifer is around 40-60% of her mature weight, she will start to cycle.

Not hard & fast rule. Different cattle: different growth curves. Different herds: different feed and management. A lighter good heifer is a better bet at bull turnout than a proper weight fat good heifer.

Of course...