Baler Knot

[Pnw Farmer]

Hello again, I've got an interesting knot my baler makes and I'm hoping that somebody here has seen it happen before and where they started at for remedying the problem. The baler is a NH 277, early 70's vintage that I picked up on a whim from an online auction for $1075, I've put a couple hundred in it and baled up around 15 ton so far, so it's already paid for itself. I intend to get the manuals but I bought it right before haying so I have yet to get those in hand. It's only the right side doing it, the left appears to have been rebuilt plus a new needle not too long ago and that side hasn't missed a tie in over 800 bales. It's ran both 210 and 240, neither changes the knot. It began mis tying when I got into some beardless barley hay and it was a nightmare to get finished. The first 150 or so bales were alfalfa/grass to clean the steel up with then around 350 bales of mixed grasses. There were a few broken ones but some of that was slug feeding and we were getting things timed up to begin with.

As soon as I got into the beardless it began breaking bales, kick out 3-8 then pop 1-2 open. Sharpened the twine knife, checked timing, cleared the chamber and cycled by hand (nothing showed up at that slow of speed), slowed down some, sped up some, changed rpm's some just trying to figure out what's going on. The twine is fraying some from the knife discs and we haven't figured out what's causing that, tightening up the discs helped the fraying some but didn't eliminate it. I thought maybe a new needle might help with that as well as there's a pretty deep groove in that side. I'm guessing that something in the bill hook timing is slightly off, it's almost like a slip knot, I haven't pulled on one to see if it pulls the knot free. I've watched slow motion videos to see if something stands out as to why it's not pulling both strands through and cutting them cleanly but if there's first hand knowledge on here of a remedy I'm all ears. Thanks in advance.

Farmer

 

[SBMF 2015]

Try backing off your pressure. It sounds like the knotters are not having enough time to get the knot properly tied.

 

[moses388]

Just thoughts that came to mind while reading your post. Hope you get it figured out.

As soon as I got into the beardless it began breaking bales, kick out 3-8 then pop 1-2 open.

1)If I get broken bales after changing crops, bale chamber pressure is the first thing I would check. If the bales are heavier due to higher moisture content, I would loosen the chamber. There must be something I don't understand. The knotters baled 350 - 500 bales of grass hay.
2)Is that poly twine in your photos? Do you have poly twine knotters in your baler? I guess you do since the baler was working until you got to the Barley. Sisal twine knotters are most common in old balers. (I'm not old enough to remember baling wire.) Some folks did retrofit their baler with poly twine knotters after they became available.

 

[M.Magis]

If one of the needles has a deep groove, you should be able to adjust it to get the "setting" within the spec called out in the manual. I was having a similar issue years ago and adjusting the needles fixed it. I've never heard of poly specific knotters?

 

[MurraysMutts]

Try backing off your pressure. It sounds like the knotters are not having enough time to get the knot properly tied.

That was my first thought as well.

Tho, I know next to nothing about twine tie balers.
But a crop change and nothing else changing, bale pressure/tension makes the most sense. I'd dang sure try it anyway.

I really cranked the tension up on my 269 (wire tie) and it started missing a bale every now and then. Bales are heavy too!

I haven't had anything else to bale yet, to try and back it off a bit and see if that fixes it.

 

[1982vett]

Been a long time since I square baled (John Deere baler) the time I had issues with fraying knots, sharpening the knifes took care of it. Not sure how the knife on a NH is mounted so maybe check to see that it is mounted correctly.

Hay patch to hay patch, always have to check tension and bale weights, I'd say especially on older model balers.

 

[SBMF 2015]

That was my first thought as well.

Tho, I know next to nothing about twine tie balers.
But a crop change and nothing else changing, bale pressure/tension makes the most sense. I'd dang sure try it anyway.

I really cranked the tension up on my 269 (wire tie) and it started missing a bale every now and then. Bales are heavy too!

I haven't had anything else to bale yet, to try and back it off a bit and see if that fixes it.

our JD 336 wire tie will let you know when the pressure is to much. It will pull the twists apart. The other no no is getting a big slug of hay in the chamber just as it trips to tie. Then it breaks the wire next to the twist. 95% of the time it works like a sewing machine. I have figured out through trial and error that my new loader tractor maintains a more consistent rpm regardless of how full the chamber is. The baler just runs better.

 

[Pnw Farmer]

Thanks for all the replies so far, I thought about the chamber pressure as well but the bales aren't coming out as bricks. Twine springs some, 44-46" average length and around the 70# mark. Much looser and it'll be like walking on sand trying to stack them.

Just thoughts that came to mind while reading your post. Hope you get it figured out.

1)If I get broken bales after changing crops, bale chamber pressure is the first thing I would check. If the bales are heavier due to higher moisture content, I would loosen the chamber. There must be something I don't understand. The knotters baled 350 - 500 bales of grass hay.
2)Is that poly twine in your photos? Do you have poly twine knotters in your baler? I guess you do since the baler was working until you got to the Barley. Sisal twine knotters are most common in old balers. (I'm not old enough to remember baling wire.) Some folks did retrofit their baler with poly twine knotters after they became available.

I can't attest to saying this machine is supposed to run sisal only since I don't have a manual yet, the twine I'm running is poly and it had a couple near empty bales of poly in it when I got it so I can only assume it's good to run poly or sisal. The first bales had a dew and they are heavy, no change though from those to after I let it completely dry out and 15# less/bale as far as breakage goes. I actually quit running because my first bales were running 18-35% moisture from the dew, gave it a few hours and they dropped down around 14-16%.

Been a long time since I square baled (John Deere baler) the time I had issues with fraying knots, sharpening the knifes took care of it. Not sure how the knife on a NH is mounted so maybe check to see that it is mounted correctly.

Hay patch to hay patch, always have to check tension and bale weights, I'd say especially on older model balers.

The knives are fixed position, no adjustment available. It's set the same as the left side which is working like a top. I put as close to a razor's edge on the knife as well with no change. Ran it through some twine and it cut completely in less than half the blade length.

I wasn't slug feeding, the windrows were pretty even so I don't think I can blame it on windrow consistency. Every thing on the right side is just more worn than the left, needle has a groove, older style frame, less paint showing on the twine discs, little more play in the gears, it just hasn't been touched yet.

Couple old boys told me beardless just bales harder and that I'm "gettin' my lessons as a rookie". Ornery ol' codgers. Haha. I'm not new to baling, just been out of the game for 15 years or so and back then it was a wire tie, Wisconsin driven JD 224 wire so I'm working with a completely different animal and back then I was just a driver who called dad on anything major instead of working on things like this one.

Thanks again everyone.

 

[1982vett]

Hey...I took a closer look at your pictures and I think I detect some damage to your string just before the knot. Now the trick is trying to remember what's going on their. Most everything says frayed cut is the knife but the fist youtube below mentions loose twine disc tension also causing frayed cuts.... but that frayed twine before the knot is something different in the knotting process. Wish I could tell you exactly, maybe someone else can that overlooked the fray before the knot, but I'd look at the twine disk tension and the wiper arm. Did a little search and came up with a few youtube videos that may be informative.

Starting around 5 min it talks about twine disc tension causing frayed cuts


Starting around 13:20 it gets into the clean cut and ragged cut and twine disc tension. At 14:42 it talks about #1 miss tie, #2 miss tie, a frayed cut


Hope this helps.

 

[1982vett]

https://www.carterag.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Knotter-Troubleshooting.pdf

 

[MurraysMutts]

Piece of string walks into a bar only to be turned away.
Your a piece of string. We don't serve your kind here.
String is a bit upset. Goes outside and twists himself all up and ruffles his ends.
Walks back in the bar and the bartender says, "Told ya before we can't serve you! Don't you know your a string?"

The string says.....

"No! I'm a frayed knot!"

 

[Pnw Farmer]

Thanks for those Vett, they were very informational. I think the twine discs might be slipping some and letting the tail on one side get too long, when the bill hook makes its revolution instead of the tail ends popping through the knot it's actually pulling through extra and tying it like a shoe lace. The few complete misties sound a lot like the tucker finger isn't pulling clear back on the twine, that side does look like there's a lot less meat on the tucker finger than the left side.

Piece of string walks into a bar only to be turned away.
Your a piece of string. We don't serve your kind here.
String is a bit upset. Goes outside and twists himself all up and ruffles his ends.
Walks back in the bar and the bartender says, "Told ya before we can't serve you! Don't you know your a string?"

The string says.....

"No! I'm a frayed knot!"

First class Murray, thanks for a little light humor to relax things during frustrating times.

Thanks a bunch everyone.