Baldy calves

[Muddy]

Four calves on ground so far. Two calves out of first time heifers, no birth problems. This is second crop from our Hereford bulls.

I was shocked to see this guy shows up with little amount of white despite of the mom being 1/4 Hereford and the sire being full Hereford.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yup - I would also be surprised. Sure there wasn't another bull around?

 

[Muddy]

Yup - I would also be surprised. Sure there wasn't another bull around?

Only two registered Hereford bulls at that time. The closest neighbor's bull is also a Hereford...but he's 5 miles away and has 30 cows to himself.

The Google eyed herf bull (one of our two bulls) seems he throws small amount of white on his calves last year but no full solid calves.

 

[MurraysMutts]

For some reason I cant click the pic to make em bigger. The first one looks pretty from what I can see. That second one has hardly any white at all tho. Lol

This is my favorite heifer calf this year. Shes a cutie!



That's her daddy on the left. He throws solid blacks and some with white. Cant imagine why a hereford wouldn't throw some white. Odd...

 

[JWBrahman]

Interesting calf, thanks for sharing. Mother Nature reserves the right to change her mind about any of the rules we are so certain we have figured out.

 

[SPH]

Four calves on ground so far. Two calves out of first time heifers, no birth problems. This is second crop from our Hereford bulls.

I was shocked to see this guy shows up with little amount of white despite of the mom being 1/4 Hereford and the sire being full Hereford.

Are they registered Hereford bulls? If so I am curious what the registration numbers are. Reason I ask is I see too many posts by people that bought what they think is a purebred Hereford bull without registration papers so if they are not registered how can they know with confidence that they are purebred Herefords?

Breed purity topics are hot discussions in some Hereford circles where I have heard stories of entirely black calves out of Hereford bulls. But I always wonder if those bulls have been registered and DNA tested and who the breeder is because of all the years we have sold bulls to commercial breeders we have never heard of one of our polled bulls siring an all black calf or odd color patterns. We DNA test all our sale bulls and never had 1 test positive as diluter. Some guys say the Polled Hereford is a crossbred and that is why there are so many inconsistencies with Hereford crosses. There are probably some impurities in every breed but those who are collecting DNA and data are being as transparent as possible where if you are taking the word of someone selling you an unregistered animal they can look the part but do you really know the history behind that animal?

 

[Ky hills]

Just looking at the cow and calf I would suspect some Red Angus in the bull. It looks consistent with some of the calves that I have seen from Red Angus. Have seen some red Angus Holstein crosses marked similar and a similar shade of red. In our cattle we have had some Hereford cows with a little Brahman blood have similar marked calves only ours had black hides from black Angus bulls.
This is a cow bought last year at the stockyards no idea her history, but she does have a tattoo in her ear as did the other cows bought in her group. She was bred to a Hereford bull last year and had a very typical Hereford marked calf with horns. This is her calf born night before last by our Angus bull. The face is mostly black with the most white facing the camera.

 

[Muddy]

Just looking at the cow and calf I would suspect some Red Angus in the bull. It looks consistent with some of the calves that I have seen from Red Angus. Have seen some red Angus Holstein crosses marked similar and a similar shade of red. In our cattle we have had some Hereford cows with a little Brahman blood have similar marked calves only ours had black hides from black Angus bulls.
This is a cow bought last year at the stockyards no idea her history, but she does have a tattoo in her ear as did the other cows bought in her group. She was bred to a Hereford bull last year and had a very typical Hereford marked calf with horns. This is her calf born night before last by our Angus bull. The face is mostly black with the most white facing the camera.

Both bulls are registered, but I've noticed that there are more redneck and Google eyed bulls in the Hereford breed than before nowadays...not much white on them. The sire of the almost all red calf, did had some pigment around the eyes. So far, 14 more calves on ground....all are full white face or brockled.

Ky hills, that calf you posted, is similar to the dam of the red calf. All black in front but have white markings around the mouth & chin.

 

[Muddy]

Got a Hereford looking calf out of a black Angus cow. She was born during snow this morning. She's doing good and now she's back with her mother.

 

[Muddy]

First panda calf for us. Last year we have no belted or panda calves from the belted cows and Hereford bulls.

 

[Muddy]

Bigger pic of the red calf

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

SPH - I was going to ask the exact same question - are they Registered?
But, who ever said they got a black calf out of Hereford bulls, obviously were bred to black cows. White face on Hereford should be homozygous??? not sure how you would NOT get white on face.

 

[Muddy]

SPH - I was going to ask the exact same question - are they Registered?
But, who ever said they got a black calf out of Hereford bulls, obviously were bred to black cows. White face on Hereford should be homozygous??? not sure how you would NOT get white on face.

Both are registered.

 

[SPH]

SPH - I was going to ask the exact same question - are they Registered?
But, who ever said they got a black calf out of Hereford bulls, obviously were bred to black cows. White face on Hereford should be homozygous??? not sure how you would NOT get white on face.

I probably should clarify my comments some. I am not one to get into deep breed purity arguments because they just never go over well and you are never going to change the mind of someone who thinks there are major problems with breed purity and breeder integrity in a breed so there is no point going back and forth in a discussion that no one will ever win. I have seen things posted by people that they say they have heard of or know of commercial breeders that have had solid black calves sired by a supposedly purebred Hereford bull and out of a black cow. I personally have never seen nor heard of this but I also am not one to call someone a liar either when I have no firsthand knowledge of said stories. We've sold registered Polled Hereford bulls for many years to mostly commercial guys breeding to black cows and many years ago we even had some of our own crossbred cows on the farm that we'd breed to our own Hereford bulls and never have we come across a solid black calf sired by a Hereford bull. In fact some of the solid black cows we used to have would sometimes have a calf that looked exactly like a Hereford. Some of those cows we knew had a touch of another breed in them like shorthorn or simmental so it wasn't a straight F1 baldy mating with a purebred Angus cow and a purebred Hereford bull. When dealing with crossbred or unregistered black cows you just never know what mix of breeds could be in the genepool that could throw some odd color patterns if you don't know for certain the history behind both animal's ancestry. We have visited several of our bull customers over the years too and seen nothing but what we would expect to see which are some good black baldy calves with predominately white faces.

I guess I was going more down the line of when someone says they are using a Hereford bull and are getting strange color patterns the first thing that comes to mind is if that bull is a registered purebred or not and where did they come from. Was this some sale barn bull you know little about or did they buy him from a reputable breeder that has extensive history and data collection practices in their operation.

 

[Ky hills]

SPH - I was going to ask the exact same question - are they Registered?
But, who ever said they got a black calf out of Hereford bulls, obviously were bred to black cows. White face on Hereford should be homozygous??? not sure how you would NOT get white on face.

I probably should clarify my comments some. I am not one to get into deep breed purity arguments because they just never go over well and you are never going to change the mind of someone who thinks there are major problems with breed purity and breeder integrity in a breed so there is no point going back and forth in a discussion that no one will ever win. I have seen things posted by people that they say they have heard of or know of commercial breeders that have had solid black calves sired by a supposedly purebred Hereford bull and out of a black cow. I personally have never seen nor heard of this but I also am not one to call someone a liar either when I have no firsthand knowledge of said stories. We've sold registered Polled Hereford bulls for many years to mostly commercial guys breeding to black cows and many years ago we even had some of our own crossbred cows on the farm that we'd breed to our own Hereford bulls and never have we come across a solid black calf sired by a Hereford bull. In fact some of the solid black cows we used to have would sometimes have a calf that looked exactly like a Hereford. Some of those cows we knew had a touch of another breed in them like shorthorn or simmental so it wasn't a straight F1 baldy mating with a purebred Angus cow and a purebred Hereford bull. When dealing with crossbred or unregistered black cows you just never know what mix of breeds could be in the genepool that could throw some odd color patterns if you don't know for certain the history behind both animal's ancestry. We have visited several of our bull customers over the years too and seen nothing but what we would expect to see which are some good black baldy calves with predominately white faces.

I guess I was going more down the line of when someone says they are using a Hereford bull and are getting strange color patterns the first thing that comes to mind is if that bull is a registered purebred or not and where did they come from. Was this some sale barn bull you know little about or did they buy him from a reputable breeder that has extensive history and data collection practices in their operation.

I agree with you on the subject of trying to argue breed purity. I have had a bull that I did not register but both his parents were registered Herefords. When bred to two certain cows that were unregistered but came from purebred stock would sometimes have calves with a white strip down their sides one had a full strip down both sides and a lot of his calves had quite a bit of white on them but still within the Hereford pattern on other cows including registered ones. I figured he and those two aforementioned cows had a touch of old time Simmental back in their pedigree somewhere. The bull also did not have the typical Hereford disposition either. As for the solid black calves I agree crossbred cows can throw a range of markings not consistent with true F1's. I have experimented with some cross bred Hereford bulls and they will result in some solid or close to solid colored calves.

 

[SPH]

I agree with you on the subject of trying to argue breed purity. I have had a bull that I did not register but both his parents were registered Herefords. When bred to two certain cows that were unregistered but came from purebred stock would sometimes have calves with a white strip down their sides one had a full strip down both sides and a lot of his calves had quite a bit of white on them but still within the Hereford pattern on other cows including registered ones. I figured he and those two aforementioned cows had a touch of old time Simmental back in their pedigree somewhere. The bull also did not have the typical Hereford disposition either. As for the solid black calves I agree crossbred cows can throw a range of markings not consistent with true F1's. I have experimented with some cross bred Hereford bulls and they will result in some solid or close to solid colored calves.

I am under the assumption that probably every breed has some extent of impurity somewhere at this point. Bulls and cows have been finding their ways into neighbors pastures since the beginning of time and they didn't have the DNA testing and parentage verification in the past that we do now that helps prevent some of these unintentional mistakes from happening. The one conspiracy I do not believe though is that there is a widespread issue of dishonest breeders knowingly fudging their registrations to pass off a crossbred as a purebred. I just don't buy that breeders who sell a lot of seedstock would want to risk their reputation by doing things like that.

Most if not all breeds have some kind of DNA testing protocols in place that would catch this now at least with bulls that must be tested before you can register any progeny from them. There is nothing we can do about mistakes that happened in the past before we had the technology we do today but I do think that breed associations are committed to constantly adjusting to the technology that is available to put in measures to protect the integrity of their breed going forward. If that means eventually you have to DNA test any animal you want to register then so be it but the costs and capacity associated with doing that many tests probably will take some time to ramp up the infrastructure so they can be efficiently done. There will always be those guys out there too that will complain about paying more to get testing done too because "we already pay too much to the association as it is" but IMO if you are raising and selling registered seedstock it's part of the business whether you like it or now. If you don't like the association then don't register your calves or pay dues and become a commercial breeder. Can't have your cake and eat it too if you want something to happen but aren't willing to comply with the changes too. Someone has to pay for it, they don't just do these things for free out of the kindness of their hearts.

 

[Ky hills]

I agree with you on the subject of trying to argue breed purity. I have had a bull that I did not register but both his parents were registered Herefords. When bred to two certain cows that were unregistered but came from purebred stock would sometimes have calves with a white strip down their sides one had a full strip down both sides and a lot of his calves had quite a bit of white on them but still within the Hereford pattern on other cows including registered ones. I figured he and those two aforementioned cows had a touch of old time Simmental back in their pedigree somewhere. The bull also did not have the typical Hereford disposition either. As for the solid black calves I agree crossbred cows can throw a range of markings not consistent with true F1's. I have experimented with some cross bred Hereford bulls and they will result in some solid or close to solid colored calves.

I am under the assumption that probably every breed has some extent of impurity somewhere at this point. Bulls and cows have been finding their ways into neighbors pastures since the beginning of time and they didn't have the DNA testing and parentage verification in the past that we do now that helps prevent some of these unintentional mistakes from happening. The one conspiracy I do not believe though is that there is a widespread issue of dishonest breeders knowingly fudging their registrations to pass off a crossbred as a purebred. I just don't buy that breeders who sell a lot of seedstock would want to risk their reputation by doing things like that.

Most if not all breeds have some kind of DNA testing protocols in place that would catch this now at least with bulls that must be tested before you can register any progeny from them. There is nothing we can do about mistakes that happened in the past before we had the technology we do today but I do think that breed associations are committed to constantly adjusting to the technology that is available to put in measures to protect the integrity of their breed going forward. If that means eventually you have to DNA test any animal you want to register then so be it but the costs and capacity associated with doing that many tests probably will take some time to ramp up the infrastructure so they can be efficiently done. There will always be those guys out there too that will complain about paying more to get testing done too because "we already pay too much to the association as it is" but IMO if you are raising and selling registered seedstock it's part of the business whether you like it or now. If you don't like the association then don't register your calves or pay dues and become a commercial breeder. Can't have your cake and eat it too if you want something to happen but aren't willing to comply with the changes too. Someone has to pay for it, they don't just do these things for free out of the kindness of their hearts.

Again I believe you are correct that the vast majority of registered breeders would not knowingly introduce another breed and then present it as the original cattle, and I think DNA technology now would prevent that. I do how ever believe that the introduction of other breeds into most mainstream breeds on some level did occur. I just don't buy the argument that some breeds went from 1000 lbs cows to 1800+ in a short time on a large scale by using outliers. The introduction of continental cattle changed the industry at that time, and then in years after that a rush to change back to a more moderate sized animal and also a more solid colored animal, I believe that outside influences occurred at both points. Does it matter? To some yes to others no. I really don't look at it as the people were doing a sinister thing they were trying to adapt and be competitive to the changes taking place. Was it completely ethical if that was the case, no but there again the perceived need to quickly produce a product result that would have more marketing appeal is pretty tempting. I can't say definitely that those thing happened but logically looking at it that is the most plausible scenario that I can see.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

KY Hill - very well said.
SPH - you are a little naive to think it was not done deliberately - in all the British breeds. My breed has always been open to crossbreeding, so no need to "cheat".

 

[kentuckyguy]

I have a hereford cow that throws calves without a solid white face. Probably some simmy somewhere in her.
This calf was out of a registered black angus bull.

Here is this year's calf out of a hereford bull

 

[dvcochran]

If you planned to keep the calf as a replacement I get the concern. If you plan to feed out and sell, do you think the color matters very much as long as the calf models good and has all the markers the buyers are looking for?
The last three breeding cycles I have bread to a registered Simental bull that is red with a white face. Great bull with excellent traits and background. I raise mainly Angus & Angus/Simental cross but have a few cows that are half Angus/half Polled Herford. They drop a good calf but the colors have been odd on a few calf's. Here is the most recent calf off one of them. Good bodied calf and strong but ugly as sin to me. What do you think?