I have a 14 head group of Hereford cows. I am looking at crossing with a purebred gelbvieh or balancer. I have an excellent source of both fairly close. I was offered a pretty god deal on a 4year old purebred, he is an awesome looking bull. My concern is that he is 6.5 frame which is borderline too much frame for my liking and his epds don’t impress. He has lbw and calving ease of 16. But his maternal and growth epds are all in the 90% range. Will heterosis with hereford overcome poor epds? Am I overthinking?
Balancer or purebred
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kenny thomas
Well-known member
I would pass on that one
Picture doesn’t really do justice, but is there something from his appearance or epds that cause your concern? I’m still learning so be transparent
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Too much on the front and not enough on the back
kenny thomas
Well-known member
What simme said plus the EPD's.
The 6.5 frame is the least of my concern.
Thx for the feedback. I’m really all over the place on selecting a bull for this spring. Probably should just get an angus bull and keep it simple, but for some reason just can’t make myself like the attitude. I really like my herfs and would love a herf bull, but need a cross and black as I’m 90% sale barn
kenny thomas
Well-known member
Its not a problem with the breed, its the bull i see.
Make sure the bull you choose is Homozygous black whatever you choose for your hereford cows.
Make sure the bull you choose is Homozygous black whatever you choose for your hereford cows.
M.Magis
Well-known member
There are lots of angus bulls as well behaved as any hereford. The bad ones are the exception, not the rule these days. That bad reputation just stuck with them like herefords and cancer eye. The only bull I ever had that I never trusted was a hereford.
Travlr
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I don't know enough about EPDs to advise you there. If your cows are capable and experienced you may not need to worry about a low birth weight bull especially, and maybe not a calving ease. You understand the difference, right?
As far as looking at a bull, you want something with some junk in the trunk. You don't want the back end of the bull to look like a Holstein's hips. Straight back, smooth front end with little or no fat hanging in the dewlap between the front legs, not a lot of gut but plenty of volume, and muscle in the rear end going down deep into the hock. Some angle to the rear legs, and it's really important that the bull has good feet with no funky toes. If the bull hasn't been working you shouldn't be seeing any bones sticking out. If he's in his working clothes he won't weigh as much because he's lost some condition, but he should still have a rear end on him.
The people buying at the sale barn don't care about EPDs. They are looking for consistent calves with flesh on them that they think will feed out economically and be high quality. Your bull needs to look like the masculine version of what you want in a bell ringing steer. And black calves sell for more money. Make sure the bull is homozygous for black and polled if you want the most for your calves.
Herefords that can make some milk and feed a calf make for great crosses. Some of the best.
farmerjan
Well-known member
We keep 100-150 brood cows according to what places we have rented... and have run 90% angus bulls... a couple Limousins, and a Gelbvieh... and a Red Poll...the limi's are a little higher headed, and the gelbvieh had a scrotal hernia so had to cull... usually have 8-10 bulls all the time due to having many smaller leased pastures... all the angus are quiet and easy to handle... yes, there have been a couple over the years that were not... but I would say maybe 2 that I did not trust and they got shipped quick... Most all of them we can go out in the field with the trailer, open it and put a pan of feed in it and just load one or 2 up to go to pastures....
No, never turn your back... but I would trust a couple of those bulls over a couple of the cows with new calves... and a bull will usually give you some indication of being untrustworthy...
I would say that the angus bulls you have been exposed to/had are more the exception than the rule compared to bulls here... We are picky about buying, and will buy a bull or 2 every 2 or 3 years as we have to cull someone for age and not passing their breeding soundness exam... most we keep until 8-12 years old if we like their calves... sold a 2011 and a 2012 bull this past year... both for injuries... have a 2011 bull now that is starting to show his age and he passed his BSE and we used him this past year.... really like his calves.... going to be hard to ship him... We got him as a mature herd bull from a small farm that sold out in 2016....
So, I wouldn't blame the angus breed, but maybe the "families" the bulls come from.... and the way they are handled..
No, never turn your back... but I would trust a couple of those bulls over a couple of the cows with new calves... and a bull will usually give you some indication of being untrustworthy...
I would say that the angus bulls you have been exposed to/had are more the exception than the rule compared to bulls here... We are picky about buying, and will buy a bull or 2 every 2 or 3 years as we have to cull someone for age and not passing their breeding soundness exam... most we keep until 8-12 years old if we like their calves... sold a 2011 and a 2012 bull this past year... both for injuries... have a 2011 bull now that is starting to show his age and he passed his BSE and we used him this past year.... really like his calves.... going to be hard to ship him... We got him as a mature herd bull from a small farm that sold out in 2016....
So, I wouldn't blame the angus breed, but maybe the "families" the bulls come from.... and the way they are handled..
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this is how I see it.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Several of our cows are Hereford as well.
We've used Hereford bulls and other red breed bulls, I've often said I'd rather work with Herefords, but I'd rather have Angus or black calves to sell.
We've found that not all Herefords are as docile as the stereotypes say, and sometimes some of them don't milk very good.
I've used predominantly Angus bulls, over the last 25 years, and I'm very aware of disposition issues within some of the lines within the breed. That said I've tried to be very cautious when selecting bulls. I try to pick out bulls that seem calm and not high headed or flighty. Knowing the breeders and their management style can be a big difference maker too.
I've had good success with getting decent acting Angus bulls. Some of my least problematic bulls have been Angus.
They are not pets and are what I consider arms length cattle. They will turn and walk away when I get about arms length from them. I will say that Angus are expert kickers. Any bred will have individuals prone to kick but Angus just seem more prevalent about it. Any bull regardless of breed should be taken very seriously and not let your guard down.
All bulls are individuals. We currently have an Angus bull, he is pretty calm he has not caused any issues and seems pretty laid back. He doesn't like being sorted from the cows and will often run back to stay with the cows so it takes a few attempts to get him but he's getting better about it as he gets more used to us. Most bulls I've had just lumber in whatever direction you want them to go unless they are trailing a cow.
I like Angus Hereford cross.
You may give up some growth with Angus, but those BWF calves are usually pretty nice and sell good. Angus do a lot of thing right and is always a good choice.
We've used Hereford bulls and other red breed bulls, I've often said I'd rather work with Herefords, but I'd rather have Angus or black calves to sell.
We've found that not all Herefords are as docile as the stereotypes say, and sometimes some of them don't milk very good.
I've used predominantly Angus bulls, over the last 25 years, and I'm very aware of disposition issues within some of the lines within the breed. That said I've tried to be very cautious when selecting bulls. I try to pick out bulls that seem calm and not high headed or flighty. Knowing the breeders and their management style can be a big difference maker too.
I've had good success with getting decent acting Angus bulls. Some of my least problematic bulls have been Angus.
They are not pets and are what I consider arms length cattle. They will turn and walk away when I get about arms length from them. I will say that Angus are expert kickers. Any bred will have individuals prone to kick but Angus just seem more prevalent about it. Any bull regardless of breed should be taken very seriously and not let your guard down.
All bulls are individuals. We currently have an Angus bull, he is pretty calm he has not caused any issues and seems pretty laid back. He doesn't like being sorted from the cows and will often run back to stay with the cows so it takes a few attempts to get him but he's getting better about it as he gets more used to us. Most bulls I've had just lumber in whatever direction you want them to go unless they are trailing a cow.
I like Angus Hereford cross.
You may give up some growth with Angus, but those BWF calves are usually pretty nice and sell good. Angus do a lot of thing right and is always a good choice.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
I think it is a little harder to "see" strengths and weaknesses when looking at just one bull. Especially if a person has not looked at a lot of cattle. I think it is easier when looking at several bulls together. The old "one is not like the others" thing (good or bad) when there are a bunch. Also easier to see docility issues when there are several. The one that goes to the opposite end of the pen, head and ears up vs the one that does not care. Even if a person can't describe the differences, I think some will stand out. But looking at a bigger group of bulls might limit the choice of breed. Easier to find a larger group of bulls of some breeds than other breeds depending on area.
Looking at a group of bulls all raised together also tends to equalize the management issues. If you look at a single bull, you may conclude he has tremendous growth (or poor growth). But how much of the growth is due to feed and how much is genetics. Having several to choose from helps you separate genetic differences out.
Choose a yearling bull based on what you see. Bull and dam if possible. Use those low accuracy epd's to choose after narrowing the choices down to 2 or 3 bulls yearling bulls that you see as otherwise equal from a phenotype standpoint. You said this is a 4 year old bull. I would ask to see some progeny from the bull. That would mean way more to me than epds. If there are no progeny to see, something else to think about.
Looking at a group of bulls all raised together also tends to equalize the management issues. If you look at a single bull, you may conclude he has tremendous growth (or poor growth). But how much of the growth is due to feed and how much is genetics. Having several to choose from helps you separate genetic differences out.
Choose a yearling bull based on what you see. Bull and dam if possible. Use those low accuracy epd's to choose after narrowing the choices down to 2 or 3 bulls yearling bulls that you see as otherwise equal from a phenotype standpoint. You said this is a 4 year old bull. I would ask to see some progeny from the bull. That would mean way more to me than epds. If there are no progeny to see, something else to think about.
can't imagine that though. 
Not wanting to knock other contributors, but Bonsma, Zeitsman and others look for a bull to look like a bull, as opposed to a market steer. Big in front, tapering to the rear. The opposite of a fertile cow, slight in front, wider to the rear. This wedge shape is a sign of fertility. Thoughts for consideration, not a recommendation.
Travlr
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I wonder how many Mexican Fighting Bulls they use on their cows? That "wedge shape" might have been popular at one time with somebody, but then we learned that the big money cuts mostly come from the back of the bull. In a modern industry devoted to producing meat we look for meaty animals and prefer the ones with more money cuts.
Mark Reynolds
Well-known member
To answer the initial question: Yes, you are overthinking. If you have to ask, it's probably going to be a NO, which is the case here. Heterosis is a good thing, but it's not going to replace bad genetics (EPDs). Its great that you have two breeds you want to cross with, but don't choose 'bad' genetics to work with in the desired breed. That's kinda like going to your favorite restaurant and ordering your least favorite meal. Do you honestly think you are going to have a good dining experience that way?
Mark Reynolds
Well-known member
I didn't see a preference for black offspring noted, so why the Homozygous black if he doesn't have a preference one way or another, unless he has a preference. There is nothing wrong with black (that I know of), but if it's not a goal on the radar, why bother making sure the Bull is homozygous for it?
