Art or Science?

[norriscathy]

It always amazes me how everyone wants THE answer. What is the best breed, best way to feed a cow, best way to feed a calf; what are EPD's? The answer "IT DEPENDS"!!!!!!!!!! There is NO correct answer. Everything depends on what type of cattle you have, were is your land what are your resources and what are your goals. As soon as you have everything figured out there is a drought, a mad cow scare or mud everywhere. Everything changes from year to year even on the same place. Here under ideal conditions we can carry one cow per acre; less than ideal one cow per two acres; with a drought we're hopping that 5 to 10 acres will be enough per cow. EPD's are great! Especially those breeders that are able to wean an 800# bull with a 1,250 # yearling weight. These numbers are impossible in a "real world" situation. To acheive those kinds of weights a breeder has to be pouring the creep feed to his calves. That mean the high milking mama and the no milk mama could have the same EPD's. Newbie's usually don't last more than seven years. It takes that long to realize that those tax right offs are real money! It takes 20 to 30 years or more to be a sucessful seedstock operator. You must develop the art. No matter how much the Universities and Newbie's want to reduce cattle raising to a formula or a computer program; IT IS A ART that takes years and years (maybe decades) to learn. There is no RIGHT answer on these boards, they could all be correct. It is truly the "eye of the master that fattens his cattle".

Sorry for being so long winded, just felt it had to be said.

 

[Rookie]

It always amazes me how everyone wants THE answer. What is the best breed, best way to feed a cow, best way to feed a calf; what are EPD's? The answer "IT DEPENDS"!!!!!!!!!! There is NO correct answer. Everything depends on what type of cattle you have, were is your land what are your resources and what are your goals. As soon as you have everything figured out there is a drought, a mad cow scare or mud everywhere. Everything changes from year to year even on the same place. Here under ideal conditions we can carry one cow per acre; less than ideal one cow per two acres; with a drought we're hopping that 5 to 10 acres will be enough per cow. EPD's are great! Especially those breeders that are able to wean an 800# bull with a 1,250 # yearling weight. These numbers are impossible in a "real world" situation. To acheive those kinds of weights a breeder has to be pouring the creep feed to his calves. That mean the high milking mama and the no milk mama could have the same EPD's. Newbie's usually don't last more than seven years. It takes that long to realize that those tax right offs are real money! It takes 20 to 30 years or more to be a sucessful seedstock operator. You must develop the art. No matter how much the Universities and Newbie's want to reduce cattle raising to a formula or a computer program; IT IS A ART that takes years and years (maybe decades) to learn. There is no RIGHT answer on these boards, they could all be correct. It is truly the "eye of the master that fattens his cattle".

Sorry for being so long winded, just felt it had to be said.

Well said!

 

[Caustic Burno]

It always amazes me how everyone wants THE answer. What is the best breed, best way to feed a cow, best way to feed a calf; what are EPD's? The answer "IT DEPENDS"!!!!!!!!!! There is NO correct answer. Everything depends on what type of cattle you have, were is your land what are your resources and what are your goals. As soon as you have everything figured out there is a drought, a mad cow scare or mud everywhere. Everything changes from year to year even on the same place. Here under ideal conditions we can carry one cow per acre; less than ideal one cow per two acres; with a drought we're hopping that 5 to 10 acres will be enough per cow. EPD's are great! Especially those breeders that are able to wean an 800# bull with a 1,250 # yearling weight. These numbers are impossible in a "real world" situation. To acheive those kinds of weights a breeder has to be pouring the creep feed to his calves. That mean the high milking mama and the no milk mama could have the same EPD's. Newbie's usually don't last more than seven years. It takes that long to realize that those tax right offs are real money! It takes 20 to 30 years or more to be a sucessful seedstock operator. You must develop the art. No matter how much the Universities and Newbie's want to reduce cattle raising to a formula or a computer program; IT IS A ART that takes years and years (maybe decades) to learn. There is no RIGHT answer on these boards, they could all be correct. It is truly the "eye of the master that fattens his cattle".

Sorry for being so long winded, just felt it had to be said.

Good post almost caustic ;-) Why do you think Cattlemen live so long to see if we accomplished anything.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Total honesty is that I don't have to make money with cattle. My ONLY mandate is to keep ag exemption on the property. Hence, if I lose a few nickels each year, I save many more nickels simply because of the property taxes.

That said, I'd like to make a few nickels on the cattle since I enjoy having them and spend so much time at it.

There is no industry in this little County and the taxes are extreme. Folks want out of the city and will pay $10K for rocky cedar infested cactus hilltop because it is close enough to the city to commute. Hence, the tax assessors value farm land at twice that. It you don't get an ag exemption, you can't afford to keep your land. So many of us run cattle and hope to make a nickel or two, and keep the land.

I inherited almost exactly twice as much property in Harrison County (east Texas) as what I own here. I have no ag exemption in East Texas and the property taxes are next to nothing. My land here (half as much) would cost me 62 times as much in taxes, if I didn't have an ag exemption. Its simple math. Buy cows and save some nickels.

 

[Farmhand]

You are right but there is a reason to ask those questions anyway. It leads to people talking. Sometimes you can pick up just a tiniest piece of information from listening to people talk. It is surprising how much of a difference that tiniest piece of information can make. Some things can be so simple that they get overlooked and you don't think about it until someone brings it up. Usually it's just happenstance.

 

[Mahoney Pursley Ranch]

backhoeboogie-----Keepin cattle for the AG Exemption is considered Hobby Farmin in these parts even if ya do enjoy them. Makes it hard on people tryin to make an honest living with cattle. Lot of Doctors and Lawyers in the same boat as you,buy land get exemptions just for the tax write off. :roll:

 

[backhoeboogie]

You are exactly right. I simply want to pass on to my kids what I have acquired and what I have inherited. It is simply a matter of location. Peers are buying land 100 miles away simply because they can buy 100 acres for what 5 cost here. I don't have an ag exemption on the land I inherited in Harrison County and the property taxes there are next to nothing.

Some of those of you "making a living on cattle" are actually making a little off of my mistakes, I think - LOL

I am a descendant of Peyton Bland who was a cattle driver way back, fought for the Republic of Texas etc. I come from a long line of cattlemen. I watched my Dad go under in the 80's droughts. It doesn't matter how good you are at it, you can always be a victim of blight or Mother Nature. Anything can happen.

Nevertheless, I like cattle and I don't have to make a living at raising them. Like I said in my first post on this subject; I was being totally honest about property taxes. Cows aren't my mainstay. If i make a few nickels, its a good thing. Its not about income write off, its about keeping property and enjoying cattle.

Farmhand: "happenstance!" I'll have to remember that term. I like it.

 

[norriscathy]

Caustic; I could only dream of coimg up to your standards, but thanks anyway. I was really expecting a lot of heat from this one, but whenever I'm ready to do battle no one picks up the glove!

 

[Caustic Burno]

Caustic; I could only dream of coimg up to your standards, but thanks anyway. I was really expecting a lot of heat from this one, but whenever I'm ready to do battle no one picks up the glove!

Heck I would have played devils advocate but totally agreed with the post, just keep your gloves handy cause I do like a good scrap.

 

[ga. prime]

Hey, backhoeboogie, you any kin to the Blands over in Tattnall County, Ga. that grow Vidalia onions?

 

[backhoeboogie]

Don't know them but my Blands came from that area in the 1700's. Likely we are way distant kin. My blands landed in Louisiana and came over to Texas in the early 1800's. There are thousands of descendants and there is a genealogy re-union each year. Seems it was Tennessee last year. My aunt sent me a pedigree chart and it is extensive. Thousands of names.

 

[ga. prime]

I hear ya backhoe. Yep, those geneology charts do get mighty confusing.

 

[mwj]

backhoeboogie-----Keepin cattle for the AG Exemption is considered Hobby Farmin in these parts even if ya do enjoy them. Makes it hard on people tryin to make an honest living with cattle. Lot of Doctors and Lawyers in the same boat as you,buy land get exemptions just for the tax write off. :roll:

How do you figure that these people make it harder on you? Is it because there land tax would be the SAME as yours? Is it any differant than a land buyer leasing ground to a rancher to run cattle on? What is your view of people making an ''honest living'' from gov. leases that are owned by all of the people including the ''hobby farmers''? Just curious!

 

[Frankie]

It always amazes me how everyone wants THE answer. What is the best breed, best way to feed a cow, best way to feed a calf; what are EPD's? The answer "IT DEPENDS"!!!!!!!!!! There is NO correct answer. Everything depends on what type of cattle you have, were is your land what are your resources and what are your goals. As soon as you have everything figured out there is a drought, a mad cow scare or mud everywhere. Everything changes from year to year even on the same place. Here under ideal conditions we can carry one cow per acre; less than ideal one cow per two acres; with a drought we're hopping that 5 to 10 acres will be enough per cow. EPD's are great! Especially those breeders that are able to wean an 800# bull with a 1,250 # yearling weight. These numbers are impossible in a "real world" situation. To acheive those kinds of weights a breeder has to be pouring the creep feed to his calves. That mean the high milking mama and the no milk mama could have the same EPD's. Newbie's usually don't last more than seven years. It takes that long to realize that those tax right offs are real money! It takes 20 to 30 years or more to be a sucessful seedstock operator. You must develop the art. No matter how much the Universities and Newbie's want to reduce cattle raising to a formula or a computer program; IT IS A ART that takes years and years (maybe decades) to learn. There is no RIGHT answer on these boards, they could all be correct. It is truly the "eye of the master that fattens his cattle".

Sorry for being so long winded, just felt it had to be said.

I'll be glad to pick up the gloves.

It doesn't matter a hoot whether there's a drought or a mudhole, 25 degrees or 90 degrees, EPDs still are the best way to identify the breeding animal that will work best in your program.

Our bull calves have adjusted WWs of 750, sometimes 800, and once a 900 lb bull calf off their momma on grass. Most of our bulls eat very well on feed test and have adj YWs of over 1200 lbs. We grow the heifers out well after weaning. We want them to be ready to breed at 15 months. None of them get creep.


A high milking cow and a low milking cow can have the same growth EPDs. What's the point you're trying to make?

I am here to tell you it doesn't take 20-30 years to be a "successful" purebred breeder. We've been making money for years on our Angus operation and haven't been at it for 20 years yet.

 

[norriscathy]

[/quote]

I'll be glad to pick up the gloves.
bull calves have adjusted WWs of 750, sometimes 800, and once a 900 lb bull calf off their momma on grass. Most of our bulls eat very well on feed test and have adj YWs of over 1200 lbs. We grow the heifers out well after weaning. We want them to be ready to breed at 15 months. None of them get creep.
.[/quote]

Why don't we take this one at a time and see if we can get some other input. There is NO way you are weaning (205 day wt) a 900# calf off of mama and normal pasture grass. If you're not creeping them on feed then you have probably have a creep gate and let them have all the nice alfalfa and rye grass they can handle.

 

[norriscathy]

[/quote]

I'll be glad to pick up the gloves.

EPDs still are the best way to identify the breeding animal that will work best in your program. A high milking cow and a low milking cow can have the same growth EPDs. What's the point you're trying to make?

[/quote]

Well let's see now. I've got one cow that gives no milk and one that pours it out, yet their weaning EPD's are the same! How does that help me identify the best breeding animal? You are compensating the poor producing cow by creep (feed or alfalfa/rye/small grains) feeding her calf. That makes your EPD's totally worthless to antone trying to produce cattle on permenant pastures.

 

[Frankie]

Why don't we take this one at a time and see if we can get some other input. There is NO way you are weaning (205 day wt) a 900# calf off of mama and normal pasture grass. If you're not creeping them on feed then you have probably have a creep gate and let them have all the nice alfalfa and rye grass they can handle.

Why do we need other input?
The 900 pound calf did wind up with a few pounds less than 900, seems like 895 or something like that for a 205 day adjusted weight. His actual weight off his mom, off grass was a bit over 900 lbs. We don't have alfalfa or rye grass. We run our cows on native pasture here in OK. We do have some bermuda and improved bluestem, but most of it is native. That was an especially good summer, lots of rain. His momma is a high milking cow. That was probably the only year in her life that she got enough to eat to express her full milking potential. I said we weaned ONE bull calf at 900 lbs., but we get over 700 205 day weights on our bull calves regularly. We don't creep.

 

[Frankie]

Well let's see now. I've got one cow that gives no milk and one that pours it out, yet their weaning EPD's are the same! How does that help me identify the best breeding animal? You are compensating the poor producing cow by creep (feed or alfalfa/rye/small grains) feeding her calf. That makes your EPD's totally worthless to antone trying to produce cattle on permenant pastures.

I'm not compensating for anything. You have a cow herd, you have a management system, you have drought, you have mud, grass (or not), all EPDs will ever tell you is that if you breed a bull with a BW EPD of 5 to those cows, under that management system, in that environment, you'd EXPECT the calves to weigh 5 more pounds at birth than if you bred those same cows, same management, same grass, to a bull with a BW EPD of 0. The same with WW, YW, etc. EPDs don't ever tell you what something will weigh. They just allow you to compare animals (bulls, in this case) to each other.

EPDs won't tell you which animal will work in your operation. You have to decide whether you need more milk, less milk, more frame, more muscle, etc, and buy the bull that will best work for you.

 

[Beef11]

Dang it Frankie you hit the nail on head. you're pretty sharp, i appreciate somebody who understands alittle about genetics and Epds. If only you would trade in your darkies for some auburns

 

[norriscathy]

Why don't we take this one at a time and see if we can get some other input. There is NO way you are weaning (205 day wt) a 900# calf off of mama and normal pasture grass. If you're not creeping them on feed then you have probably have a creep gate and let them have all the nice alfalfa and rye grass they can handle.

Why do we need other input?
The 900 pound calf did wind up with a few pounds less than 900, seems like 895 or something like that for a 205 day adjusted weight. His actual weight off his mom, off grass was a bit over 900 lbs. We don't have alfalfa or rye grass. We run our cows on native pasture here in OK. We do have some bermuda and improved bluestem, but most of it is native. That was an especially good summer, lots of rain. His momma is a high milking cow. That was probably the only year in her life that she got enough to eat to express her full milking potential. I said we weaned ONE bull calf at 900 lbs., but we get over 700 205 day weights on our bull calves regularly. We don't creep.

And I beleive in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy!