Animal Rights Initiatives A Little Scary

[Alice]

And reasonable people keep them in check.

That is definitely my hope...and until it's proven otherwise, I'm gonna have to believe it.

Do we continue to allow what amounts to animal neglect/abuse to happen so PETA cannot get a foot in the door?

Put like that, absolutely not.

I do not agree with PETA. Way to far gone, those people.

Correct!

But that does not mean that this legislation is wrong.

Nope...not to me. Now, if there's some hidden something in that legislation that twists it around and spits it out exactly the opposite, then not only is it wrong, it's unethical in the extreme.

Moderation is almost always a safe way to go. We did not vote to free the pigs, just give them a little more space. Not green pastures and eden till they die naturally. I cannot believe that graduating to a 7x7 pen (if they are lucky) qualifies as extreme in anyones mind.

I just stepped it off. A 7x7 pen definitely does not qualify as extreme...anything less does.

I raise BEEF calves...that means cattle to eat...which means cattle that get killed to make it to the table. However, I also take pride in making certain that my calves are not mistreated in the process. And, yes, SRR, you said something to that effect. However, have you read the legislation...the entire legislation you are speaking about, or did you do like I do a lot of the time and just read the title and skim the paragraphs.

I haven't read it...I'm just going on the way I was raised when it comes to raising livestock. I think it's a dang shame that there have been the lousy few that have mistreated their livestock to a point that PETA has been allowed to gain a foothold, that have caused the need for legislation. It's the initial abusers that need vilifying...

Alice

 

[Cheyenne]

Whose pocket does the consumer's money go into. It sure isn't mine. I raise feeders out in an open air feed lot with plenty of room to move around, fresh air and sunshine and I'm not getting any extra money for doing it that way.

Someone may make more money off this legislation, but I can bet it won't be the producer.

 

[Keren]

I wish those people who stand up for animal rights could understand some simple things:

If you put chooks in a paddock rather than a shed, more chooks will die.

If farrowing crates aren't used, more piglets will die.

If sheep aren't mulesed, more sheep will die.

I wish people could understand . . . it is in the best interest of a primary producer to ensure the welfare of his livestock, which in turn ensures him an income.

The concept is not that difficult to grasp.

 

[hraz]

Again I say READ the legislation before you critisize it. It states that you MAY confine the sow up to 7 days BEFORE giving birth. The farrowing crate is not the issue and is not even mentioned. The gestation crate, where the sow is kept DURING her ENTIRE pregnancy, is what is effected by the new law. The only reason the law may effect the farrowing crate is because common practice is to reinseminate the sow about 5 days after giving birth. Now you have a pregnant pig again. These breeding sows on a typical commercial hog farm are confined almost continually.

The Florida Farm Bureau spokesman in Gainsville stated on Nov 9, 2002 the facts of the 2 Fl. hog farms I mentioned. Nope, I will not say that the articles stating the legilation caused there closure were misleading. I do not have to, the effected people did it themselves. In an interview one of the hog farmers himself stated that the price per pound was too low to even cover costs by as much as .10 per pound. They were going under long before the law passed.

 

[auctionboy]

We will still have pork producers. The producers in Fl. did not shut down because of the legislation there. One was down before the law passed and the other was already phasing out. Prices drove them out. Will this cost money-yes. Doing the ethical, moral thing may not always be the cheapest. People want to eat meat. They just want to think it was happy before it got to the grocery store. And they will pay for it. They already are in ever growing numbers. I have never heard anyone complain about the way a 4h/ffa type project animal was raised. I really do not think that it is on anyones agenda.

It most be mice to live in a fairy tale world like yours, did you ever hear "Don't bite the hand that feeds you"?

 

[dun]

Everyone, including the animals, is a little happier.

As soon as the animal "happiness" card was played I knew this whole debate would be meaningless. Humanizing animals, there's a word for it but I don;t recall what it is, irritates the snot out of me. They're dumb animals, they know pain and a full or empty stomach and when they're sick and don;t feel well. But the don;t understand the reasons for any of it.

dun

 

[hraz]

Neither does a dog but we surely prosecute those who improperly confine them. Happiness does not mean understanding. Why should a food animal not be reasonably comfortable while being fed out or bred? Being the more intelligent animal requires us to use compassion and take responsibility for the well being of those we have in our care. I do not live in a fairytale world by any means. I keep food animals. They do not live in my house. I do not even give them a name. They are not pets but dinner. But they are reasonably comfortable while they are here. It has been shown that "happy" animals make better food. Is creating a better product not the purpose?

 

[hraz]

http://www.albertapork.com/news.aspx?NavigationID=1456
Here is a good place to see the particular crate effected by the legislation. Not a farrowing crate. A pig in a farrowing crate caring for her young is not pregnant and not regulated by the new law.

 

[badaxemoo]

As soon as the animal "happiness" card was played I knew this whole debate would be meaningless. Humanizing animals, there's a word for it but I don;t recall what it is, irritates the snot out of me. They're dumb animals, they know pain and a full or empty stomach and when they're sick and don;t feel well. But the don;t understand the reasons for any of it.

dun

Is the word you are looking for anthropomorphism? I agree that there are serious problems with this. Just listen to those wacky pet advice shows on the radio.

Maybe happiness isn't the correct term to use for non-human organisms, but why would you call an animal dumb? All mammals evolved to behave in certain ways and to respond to various stimuli. They aren't dumb as long as they are fulfilling their biological mandate.

When I let my cattle out onto fresh pasture in the spring after having them cooped up during mud time, their body language and behavior would suggest they are experiencing the same endorphin release that humans feel when they experience intense joy.

If you go to a confinement hog facility and observe the look and demeanor of a sow crammed into a crate, and then come to my place and look at a sow and a litter of piglets who are nesting in deep straw in a tin hut on pasture, I guarantee you will see the difference.

To me, animal welfare isn't about not eating animals.The whole point is trying to create an environment that allows animals to be animals while still generating a profit.

Our species is differentiated from most others because of our superior intellect. To treat animals with respect doesn't humanize animals.

However, to inflict the kind of cruelty on animals that often occurs in industrial settings and to treat them solely as tools for profit seems to have the effect of animalizing humans.

 

[hraz]

BRAVO!

 

[Cheyenne]

I cannot understand why humanely raising food animals meets such resistance. It is what the people of this country are saying they want and are willing to PAY for. So raise it nice and charge for it. Everyone, including the animals, is a little happier.

Hraz:

I have to agree you are not living in the real world. Humanely raising livestock is not the issue. I believe that everyone on this board and even producers who are not, will agree that mistreatment, mismanagement and animal cruelty are not acceptable.

From your statement above, I presume that you sell your livestock off farm to a niche market. However, if I were to take a load to the packer and tell them "Hey, my hogs were raised nice, happy, well cared for and given a scratch or two a day, so I am going to charge you $65.00/ctw. today instead of accepting your market price of $45.00/ctw. What in the heck do you think is going to happen?

Also when that nicely raised sow is past her prime, she is no different than a canner cow. Worth probably $10.00/ctw. and will end up as dog food or something. (No added value for being required to raise her humanely)

Now take a smaller independent producer who already raises his livestock in a "nice" manner, make him pay to bring his facilities inline with the new legislation, and watch him slowly go under because market conditions won't allow him to recoup his expenses.

So I will ask you again, who's pocket is the consumer who is willing to pay more for a humanely raised animal, going into? I guarantee you it does not trickle down to the producer.

 

[hraz]

if the produce is already raising the sow in a "nice" manner there should not be a need for changes. I agree that the economics is very complicated. Everyone involved in the production process from the producer to the consumer will have to make changes. Changes are seldom simple. Changes for the better seem to be the hardest. In the end, if the meat is raised humanely and labled so, people will pay for it. Everyone I know that shops for meat in the store would gladly pay more for meat labled humanely raised in the USA.

 

[hraz]

The producers here in AZ have 6 years to make the necessary changes.

 

[J. T.]

I don't think the average consumer gives a rat's rear end how their McDonald's hamburger was raised. They don't care, they have no idea how it was produced, they don't care if it was Angus, Longhorn, Charolais, or Buffalo. As long as meat is available at a price that the consumer is willing to pay and as long as the quality is there, the average consumer doesn't put any thought as to whether, the steer, barrow, or broiler was happy while it was alive. In fact, I would wager that the idea of eating said animals never crosses the minds of the majority of people eating these products. I don't think that animals ought to be raised in inhumane condition simply because most consumers are ignorant of methods used in the food animal industry. Livestock producers are compassionate about the well being of their animals. But these animals are to produce income and they can't do that if treated inhumanely. Therefore, the methods currently being used to raise livestock must be catering to needs of the animals because they continue to reproduce, grow, and produce an acceptable product.

 

[Alice]

I do wish that local law enforcement had gotten a touch more involved around here. During the drought, and still to this day, one can see livestock, cattle mainly, that are so thin they falter when they walk. Cattle are going thru the auctions that I cannot imagine would have enough meat on their bones to make a cheap hamburger. What I cannot understand is why livestock producers will hang onto an animal that is starving and send it to the sale when it cannot possibly bring any money. AND, I cannot understand how a livestock producer can look at a herd of cattle that is obviously starving to death and then look at him/herself in the mirror.

Recently, a herd of horses was confiscated in a county north of here. The ones that lived after confiscation are in pitiful shape at best and may or may not have to be put down. The ones that were put down had pounds and pounds of sand and dirt in their bellies. Now, for some reason, law enforcement and John Q. Public get real concerned when they see horses in this shape, but turn a blind eye to cattle.

Not all livestock producers make certain their animals are not mistreated. You don't have to confine one in a small pen, or in squalor to be considered abuse. Stavation is neglectful, abusive, and shameful, and it's pervasive.

Alice

 

[dun]

Who are these people that are defining humane. The majority have never been closer to a pig then a pound of bacon or a steak from the store.
Remember the peta mantra of a rat is a pig is a child or some such nonsense.

dun

 

[dun]

http://www.albertapork.com/news.aspx?NavigationID=1456
Here is a good place to see the particular crate effected by the legislation. Not a farrowing crate. A pig in a farrowing crate caring for her young is not pregnant and not regulated by the new law.

Didn;t you post somewhere in theis thread that they're bred while still raising their pigs? If so they would have to come out of the farrowing crate as soon as they're bred

dun

 

[hraz]

PETA aside, Dun, do you consider it humane to confine a sow in a 2x7 crate for the majority of her life? Do not throw the farrowing crate and cruch the piglets thing out. I have already shown that the farrowing crate is not an issue.

Animal control officers are woefully over burdened. Too many calls for to few individuals. Out in the country, unless a report is made, they may never know there is a problem. I encourage anyone who sees abuse or neglect of any kind to report it. Once it is reported they will investigate.

 

[dun]

Is the word you are looking for anthropomorphism? I agree that there are serious problems with this. Just listen to those wacky pet advice shows on the radio.

Maybe happiness isn't the correct term to use for non-human organisms, but why would you call an animal dumb? All mammals evolved to behave in certain ways and to respond to various stimuli. They aren't dumb as long as they are fulfilling their biological mandate.

When I let my cattle out onto fresh pasture in the spring after having them cooped up during mud time, their body language and behavior would suggest they are experiencing the same endorphin release that humans feel when they experience intense joy.

If you go to a confinement hog facility and observe the look and demeanor of a sow crammed into a crate, and then come to my place and look at a sow and a litter of piglets who are nesting in deep straw in a tin hut on pasture, I guarantee you will see the difference.

To me, animal welfare isn't about not eating animals.The whole point is trying to create an environment that allows animals to be animals while still generating a profit.

Our species is differentiated from most others because of our superior intellect. To treat animals with respect doesn't humanize animals.

However, to inflict the kind of cruelty on animals that often occurs in industrial settings and to treat them solely as tools for profit seems to have the effect of animalizing humans.

I used the term dumb animals as in a lower evolutionary plane then humans, I didn;t say they were stupid.
But that get's into a whole philisophical deal and I won;t go there.

dun

 

[hraz]

And, the public obviously cares about the humane keeping of pigs, at least in AZ and Fl. In AZ it passed by more than 60%. Not stupid uninformed people but tax paying FOOD BUYING people. As far as fast food goes the fast food companies are more and more frequently seeking out suppliers that produce the food humanely. Changes are being made. The biggest resistance is coming from producers who have to change production practices to raise the animals in a more humane way.