AI and ET

[upfrombottom]

I have been wanting to attend AI and ET classes for a long time and have read a lot about it. But have found no place that just teaches this in my area. To those of you that use these practices how or where did you start.

 

[Frankie]

Ask your local vet. He may do it or know where an AI class is going on. Most of the semen companies run AI schools. Here's a link to info at GENEX. ABS also offers AI classes. And some cow colleges offer the course.

GENEX: http://genex.crinet.com/page48/AITraining

 

[Willow Springs]

I wouldn't bother with the ET course. The course is expensive, embryos are expensive and if it's anything like AI'ing it will take a while to get good at implanting embryos. Unless you are going to implant a lot of cheap embryos you are better off paying someone who is good at it. Maybe someone else has had a different experience, but that's my opinion.

 

[upfrombottom]

I would really like to start a purebred herd. Already have purchased a pair of purebred cows. Great cows. I wanted to take embryos from these cows and transplant them into some of my other cows. I understand instead of getting 10 or 12 calves in their life cycle I could possibly get 30 to 40. There are several ranchers around here that talk about doing this but none does it mainly because there is no one with the training or experience. Having gone to engineering school, I am no stranger to a laboratory. I have searched the web and on these boards and read allot about this practice and only found 1 place that teaches classes. They are in Texas and it is hard to leave this place and stay gone long enough to attend.

 

[novaman]

I'm going with Willow on this one. Unless you've got some top end cows, and I mean top end, it probably doesn't pay to be doing ET. If I were you I would attend an AI class and get going with that now. I don't doubt that you have very good cows but there are always improvements to be made. Find the faults in your cows and choose a sire that corrects those faults and get breeding. Your good cows will have calves that will be even better cows. If your doing things right you will making big steps in advancing your herd simply by AIing.

 

[dun]

Is manahattan KS too far? Seems like there is another one that folks on here have talked about

http://www.agtechinc.com/etschool/

 

[Willow Springs]

Nothing wrong with flushing Top cows, but get someone who knows what they are doing to flush and implant the embryos. Being an engineer doesn't mean sqaut. First go to the AI course and learn how to do that properly; it takes a lot of repitition to get confident and quick at it. Then if you really want to you could take the embryo course, but there is much more to implanting embryos than AI'ing. I still say get someone who knows how to do embryo work; you'll be money ahead in the long run.

Do the math on embryos too. In Canada it will costs about $150 including synchro drugs to implant an embryo. Assume a 60% conception (although fresh can be better than 70% and frozen 60%). You already have a $250/ live calf just to implant. Then add in the cull calves from the flush and the dead ones; you might keep 60% of the calves?? So now you are at about $420/calf kept, but you still haven't paid for the flush, travel, flushing drugs or semen (about another $500-600 in Canada). And you have to hope that you get a good flush; Angus cows generally flush well, but the average flush is only about 5-6 good embryo. So that's another $280/ calf kept if you get the average flush. So add $700 to the value of the calf that your commercial cow would normally have for you anyway (maybe $600 in current markets) and you have a $1300 weaned calf. Those cows you are flushing better be good.

 

[upfrombottom]

Nothing wrong with flushing Top cows, but get someone who knows what they are doing to flush and implant the embryos. Being an engineer doesn't mean sqaut. First go to the AI course and learn how to do that properly; it takes a lot of repitition to get confident and quick at it. Then if you really want to you could take the embryo course, but there is much more to implanting embryos than AI'ing. I still say get someone who knows how to do embryo work; you'll be money ahead in the long run.

Do the math on embryos too. In Canada it will costs about $150 including synchro drugs to implant an embryo. Assume a 60% conception (although fresh can be better than 70% and frozen 60%). You already have a $250/ live calf just to implant. Then add in the cull calves from the flush and the dead ones; you might keep 60% of the calves?? So now you are at about $420/calf kept, but you still haven't paid for the flush, travel, flushing drugs or semen (about another $500-600 in Canada). And you have to hope that you get a good flush; Angus cows generally flush well, but the average flush is only about 5-6 good embryo. So that's another $280/ calf kept if you get the average flush. So add $700 to the value of the calf that your commercial cow would normally have for you anyway (maybe $600 in current markets) and you have a $1300 weaned calf. Those cows you are flushing better be good.

I take it this is something you do not do so this question was not meant for you. I was only implying that I have spent many hours in a college laboratory and am willing and able to learn. The way I see it I could more than pay for the education, charging people like you the $150 bucks.

 

[Willow Springs]

I do AI myself and have qualified people put my embryos in. I understand what is involved, which you it would seem, do not. I have tried less skilled implanters and have been very dissapointed with conception; good luck finding anyone that will let you touch their embryos that are worth $500-$1000 a piece (or more).

Anyway, if you want to try all the power to you, nothing wrong with learning.

 

[upfrombottom]

I refuse to get into a battle of wits with what seems to me to be an unarmed opponent.

 

[Willow Springs]

Touche.

 

[novatech]

I do AI myself and have qualified people put my embryos in. I understand what is involved, which you it would seem, do not. I have tried less skilled implanters and have been very dissapointed with conception; good luck finding anyone that will let you touch their embryos that are worth $500-$1000 a piece (or more).

Anyway, if you want to try all the power to you, nothing wrong with learning.

Just out of curiosity. How do you become qualified without taking a course? I would think that taking the course was the first step in making the qualified people qualified.
He may find out that he does not want to or he is good at it. With your attitude nobody would be doing it.
Personally I am not the sort of person that limits himself on what I can or cannot do. It just takes knowledge, equipment, and experience. Experience is a big factor. But I cannot think of a better place to get it that your own cattle.
If you have the time and money to do it I say go for it.
Good luck

 

[mvs]

As for as AI'ing, in some states the extension service will put on a clinic. I know there is a cost, but it isn't too terribly high. There are also some locations, such as Reproductive Enterprises in stillwater that have classes regularly on AI'ing. As far ET, you can take courses through Reproductive Enterprises and ET school (not sure name) in Senatobia, MS (near Memphis). I would recommend to anyone, learning to AI first and then if you so desire, you can try to learn to do ET. I have done both and worked for an embryologist for a while and will admit, the ET work is not that easy, and it is all technique/practive. So, I would recommend, if your doing this for your own cattle, do just AI and pay someone qualified to do the ET (if you want). To perform ET, you get one chance (one embryo). You have to put it in the right place, at the right time, and even then there are other factors that can cause you to not get them to settle.
Now, to qualify to be a certified embryologist, you have to have so many transfers of fresh and frozen embryos and a certain number of flushes. I believe you also have to be either a PhD or a DVM (on this one I am not 100% sure). A lot of vets, have done the courses and know how to perform, but aren't certified, because of the paperwork, expense, etc.

 

[Double R Ranch]

upfrombottom,
I highly recomend learning and practicing AI first. That is what I did and I was thankful every day at ET school that I had. I fully incourage you to do both though. I got very good at AI'ing with very high conception rates with SYNC protocals. This will be very important in ET. The students in my class who couldn't AI or didn't know how to sucessfully use SYNC programs couldn't even get threw the cervix which kinkof defeats the purpose alltogether and if you don't know how to SYNC how can you expect to add superovulation onto that.
I highly recomend going to the school I went to in Mississippi. The teacher has been one of the biggest people in ET all the way back to the 70's. If you are interested in more about it PM me and i'll gladly tell you more. This school also teaches you how to make your own medias which saves you hundreds of dollars. They sell the equipment new for less than all these other school sell it for or you can get anywhere else that I was able to find.
With my round trip flight, hotel, school, lab equipment shipped to my house it was still cheaper than anyother school I could find. I really incourage you, if you are going to do it, do it right. I feel it is 100% worth it.
Here it is very expensive to have someone come out and flush my cattle (which I still have to Superovulate myself) and freeze embryo's. Not to mention the cost to implant them.
I will have payed for my schooling in a year or less depending on how much I flush and implant. My intentions are to take the high quality cattle I just purchased, superovulate them, breed them to top sires and repeat several times to different sires. Freeze the viable embryo's and implant these embryo's into my non registered cattle come breeding season. To me doing it myself is worth it. Best way put is ET is like dominoes. One thing gets messed up it all goes down. So when the ET tech is at someone elses place and can't get to your place to flush its all a wash. Doing it yourself you have "full control" over the outcome of all the money and hard work to get the top cattle your wanting.
Plus you have the option of buying embryo's at special sales and having a valid warrantee on those embryo's.
JMO
Double R