A question for US Brahman Breeders

[Australian Cattleman]

Its made me wonder for some time now. Why do established Brahman breeders in US still have cattle in their adverts and sale catalogues,with other herds prefixes? What I mean is that I quite often see cattle for sale out of say for instance a V8 or a Hudgins cow. I can understand the bull side of things but it baffles me as to why established herds need to use other breeders females. Perhaps their breeding programs are too shallow or are not performing and need an injection of other breeders cattle. There is no way here in Australia that you would see an established stud advertising progeny by someones elses bull out of one of my cows. Let alone by their bull out of my cow. It just puzzles me.
Colin

 

[novatech]

Its made me wonder for some time now. Why do established Brahman breeders in US still have cattle in their adverts and sale catalogues,with other herds prefixes? What I mean is that I quite often see cattle for sale out of say for instance a V8 or a Hudgins cow. I can understand the bull side of things but it baffles me as to why established herds need to use other breeders females. Perhaps their breeding programs are too shallow or are not performing and need an injection of other breeders cattle. There is no way here in Australia that you would see an established stud advertising progeny by someones elses bull out of one of my cows. Let alone by their bull out of my cow. It just puzzles me.
Colin

Marketing. There is no "for instance" about it. V8 and Hudgins are world renown for their cattle. Some people put these prefixes in their name just to show what is in their pedagree.
There a lot of people that will buy cattle from these ranches at prices that will never show a return on the investment, just so the can say that is where she came from. They are great cattle but you can buy just as good elsewhere. For example look at the RB sale results. Some of these same cattle would have brought 5 times as much with the V8 or Hudgins brand on them.
In Australia they may not use their prefix, but they certainly do mention they came form V8 or Hudgins in their adverts.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Its made me wonder for some time now. Why do established Brahman breeders in US still have cattle in their adverts and sale catalogues,with other herds prefixes? What I mean is that I quite often see cattle for sale out of say for instance a V8 or a Hudgins cow. I can understand the bull side of things but it baffles me as to why established herds need to use other breeders females. Perhaps their breeding programs are too shallow or are not performing and need an injection of other breeders cattle. There is no way here in Australia that you would see an established stud advertising progeny by someones elses bull out of one of my cows. Let alone by their bull out of my cow. It just puzzles me.
Colin

that's the thing around here to buy seedstock from the big name's money game, prestige to heck with establishing your own proven herd. let's eat,drink, and be merry for tomorrow....were changing bull's ;-)

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Its made me wonder for some time now. Why do established Brahman breeders in US still have cattle in their adverts and sale catalogues,with other herds prefixes? What I mean is that I quite often see cattle for sale out of say for instance a V8 or a Hudgins cow. I can understand the bull side of things but it baffles me as to why established herds need to use other breeders females. Perhaps their breeding programs are too shallow or are not performing and need an injection of other breeders cattle. There is no way here in Australia that you would see an established stud advertising progeny by someones elses bull out of one of my cows. Let alone by their bull out of my cow. It just puzzles me.
Colin

Colin-

Your post tells me that you are line breeding every one of your progeny through your females by not bringing any outside genetics into your herd, except through your bulls. That is fine, if that is your breeding plan, and you have only super ratioing cows that you use for donors! You know, the female lines need improving also! Exacerbating quality occurs on both sides of the pedigree!

DOC HARRIS

 

[TheBullLady]

No doubt about it.. JDH and V8 are marketing geniuses in the US Brahman breed. I agree with you 100%... Brahman breeders are the only ones I know of that will market another breeders cattle. I also raise Simmentals, which is a totally different ballgame, whereas breeders brag about their own genetics.

Some day that will change. Brahman cattle are wonderful.. I love the breed but don't care much for the organization.

 

[novatech]

No doubt about it.. JDH and V8 are marketing geniuses in the US Brahman breed. I agree with you 100%... Brahman breeders are the only ones I know of that will market another breeders cattle. I also raise Simmentals, which is a totally different ballgame, whereas breeders brag about their own genetics.

Some day that will change. Brahman cattle are wonderful.. I love the breed but don't care much for the organization.

I am starting to see a shift. With the Genestar technology and NFI testing there are many breeders taking advantage of this.
These are new marketing tools that may give some breeders an advantage over the big guys. Kallion Farm's Last sale brought big bucks, and these newly developed genetics are what people were buying, not show cattle.
I beleive if this trend continues the Brahman breed will one day be able to stand on its own without just being used as a cross.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Its made me wonder for some time now. Why do established Brahman breeders in US still have cattle in their adverts and sale catalogues,with other herds prefixes? What I mean is that I quite often see cattle for sale out of say for instance a V8 or a Hudgins cow. I can understand the bull side of things but it baffles me as to why established herds need to use other breeders females. Perhaps their breeding programs are too shallow or are not performing and need an injection of other breeders cattle. There is no way here in Australia that you would see an established stud advertising progeny by someones elses bull out of one of my cows. Let alone by their bull out of my cow. It just puzzles me.
Colin

Colin-

Your post tells me that you are line breeding every one of your progeny through your females by not bringing any outside genetics into your herd, except through your bulls. That is fine, if that is your breeding plan, and you have only super ratioing cows that you use for donors

• ! You know, the female lines need improving also

! Exacerbating quality occurs on both sides of the pedigree!

DOC HARRIS

can't you do this with the bull's? if you have the cows were you want and maintain them with good bull selecton's as long as you keep your cow moving forward. sure they are better cows out there than mine but might be just one that suit my program. were i can use one bull to add a good trait, or remove a bad one, on a good group of established cows

 

[novatech]

When breeding for replacement heifers. I have not found One bull that will be a complement to every cow. There are two ways to improve the herd. One is to replace the cows with as close as you can to clones or use AI and select bulls that will complement the individual cow. I am speaking as there is a goal in mind.
I am in no way saying that some cows should not be culled, and replaced.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

When breeding for replacement heifers. I have not found

• One bull that will be a complement to every cow.

There are two ways to improve the herd. One is to replace the cows with as close as you can to clones or use AI and select bulls that will complement the individual cow. I am speaking as there is a goal in mind.
I am in no way saying that some cows should not be culled, and replaced.

then you would have a unequel set of cows. because on a established set of cows there should not be that big a difference over all in the calves. and.. natural.. cloning is what it takes to do it ;-)

 

[DOC HARRIS]

ALACOWMAN- Could you clarify this comment a little more? I don't follow your full meaning, I guess.
" . . can't you do this with the bull's? if you have the cows were you want and maintain them with good bull selecton's as long as you keep your cow moving forward. sure they are better cows out there than mine but might be just one that suit my program. were i can use one bull to add a good trait, or remove a bad one, on a good group of established cows. ."

What, exactly, do you mean by ". . .as long as you keep your cow . .moving forward"?

DOC HARRIS

 

[ALACOWMAN]

ALACOWMAN- Could you clarify this comment a little more? I don't follow your full meaning, I guess.
can't you do this with the bull's? if you have the cows were you want and maintain them with good bull selecton's as long as you keep your cow moving forward. sure they are better cows out there than mine but might be just one that suit my program. were i can use one bull to add a good trait, or remove a bad one, on a good group of established cows

What, exactly, do you mean by ". . .as long as you keep your cow . .moving forward"?

DOC HARRIS

buy using quality bull's that are superior to your cows so that the next generation will be better than their parents. dont see any reason.... if you retain your own heifers.... that a bull alone would'nt be enough.sure i could go and pay top money for proven cows that someone else has bred. but why not keep improving my existing herd through bull selection.

 

[novatech]

When breeding for replacement heifers. I have not found

• One bull that will be a complement to every cow.

There are two ways to improve the herd. One is to replace the cows with as close as you can to clones or use AI and select bulls that will complement the individual cow. I am speaking as there is a goal in mind.
I am in no way saying that some cows should not be culled, and replaced.

then you would have a unequel set of cows. because on a established set of cows there should not be that big a difference over all in the calves. and.. natural.. cloning is what it takes to do it ;-)

I guess this boils down to what type cattle one has and what market your dealing with.
My ultimate goal is to produce the best cow that will give me the best F1. To do this I must be highly selective in the traits I want to develope. I have listed these as to prority. Any bull selected must meet a certain criteria. I only use old bull semen as there are more years of performance records and progeny history. Secondly I can usually find some people that own some of the progeny and ask all the really important questions.
I have spent many hours traceing back pedagrees looking for common denomonators on there qualities and by doing this it also allows me to disqualify some things I do not want bred into my stock.
As far as the cows go, they are as close to what I want as I could ever hope to buy, that is unless I found a better one at the right price. I can find room for improvement in every cow.
Each cow does not have the same thing that needs improvement. Therefore I try and select bulls that may help with that particular point. There is no way one bull could work for my particular situation. The ability of one bull to produce a better calf can only be based on progeny which has to be proven by you or ,hopefully, the person you bought him from.
Given what I have said the really smart thing to do is buy more cows like I already have and skip this expensive raise your own project. But some things are done just for the love of it, or makeing a difference.

 

[TheBullLady]

Something else to keep in mind.. Brahman bulls are WAY less expensive than Brahman cows. So if you can improve your herd with an exceptional Brahman bull, that would be the most cost effective choice.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Something else to keep in mind.. Brahman bulls are WAY less expensive than Brahman cows. So if you can improve your herd with an exceptional Brahman bull, that would be the most cost effective choice.

From some of my reference material. When straightbred cows reared crossbreed calves there was an average extra 8.5 percent increase in weight of calf weaned per cow. If these crossbred dams were then used to rear crossbred calves, a further 14.8 percent increase was seen as a result of the better maternal genetic environment provided by the crossbred dams. The extra calf weight from using crossbred dams to rear crossbred calves was 23.3% as compared with straightbred cows rearing straightbred calves. This resulted in a potential return increase of $40-45 per cow.

 

[novatech]

Something else to keep in mind.. Brahman bulls are WAY less expensive than Brahman cows. So if you can improve your herd with an exceptional Brahman bull, that would be the most cost effective choice.

Generaly that is true. But it is usually the cull or rather not the top quality bulls that are inexpensive. There are some exceptional buys out there though, as many Brahman breeders do not make any effort to market there bulls.
One must also factor the productive life expectency of one breed over the other.