A HARD PULL

[Avalon]

Ok cowboys and cowgirls. I'm in uncharted territory and dont want to call on a vet. (yet) We had a heifer that "tried to calve about 60 days ago. The calf died in the canal. We were a bit late getting to the pasture. Calf was to big plus he was presented by the nose only with the front legs completley under him. We were very invasive as we worked at pushing him back in. all we were able to to is get one leg and the head. We pulled and pulled for what seemed an eternity and finally got the calf out. She was not prolapsed but we did give her LA 200 and a shot of lutylise to clean her up. I let her have one natural heat then implanted her with a group of cows. (heres the but and the question)
When I went to put the CIDR in, I noticed that it was unusally awkward getting it to the cervix. when I pulled the gun out there was blood on it. This was 15 days after her last heat so I know she was not sluffing. Then when I pulled the CIDR yesterday. There was an unusual amount of puss which came out with the CIDR. What would you guys do in this situation? Go ahead and breed her and see what happens? or treat her with something? If so what?
Thanks for any input.. I just hate calling the vet..

 

[Joy of Texas]

Ok cowboys and cowgirls. I'm in uncharted territory and dont want to call on a vet. (yet) We had a heifer that "tried to calve about 60 days ago. The calf died in the canal. We were a bit late getting to the pasture. Calf was to big plus he was presented by the nose only with the front legs completley under him. We were very invasive as we worked at pushing him back in. all we were able to to is get one leg and the head. We pulled and pulled for what seemed an eternity and finally got the calf out. She was not prolapsed but we did give her LA 200 and a shot of lutylise to clean her up. I let her have one natural heat then implanted her with a group of cows. (heres the but and the question)
When I went to put the CIDR in, I noticed that it was unusally awkward getting it to the cervix. when I pulled the gun out there was blood on it. This was 15 days after her last heat so I know she was not sluffing. Then when I pulled the CIDR yesterday. There was an unusual amount of puss which came out with the CIDR. What would you guys do in this situation? Go ahead and breed her and see what happens? or treat her with something? If so what?
Thanks for any input.. I just hate calling the vet..

Call or take her to your vet.

 

[KNERSIE]

Definately not AI her as it would be just a waste of semen. Talk to your vet about the best treatment, I suspect it will involve a 5-7 day course of pennicillin at a high dose plus an iodine rinse of the uterus.

 

[TexasBred]

Sounds like she's got a uterine infection. Until you get it cleared up any attempts at breeding will be a waste of semen.

 

[bigbull338]

as said dont waste the semen to AI her.im betting she is infected bigtime in her uterus.an she should be stinking so bad you can smell her a mile off.take her to the vet an let him check her.an flush her out good.

 

[milkmaid]

3 shots of Lutalyse, 12 hours apart for each - that will clean her out - then give one more shot of Lute in 2 weeks to bring her into heat and go from there.

Of course... if you're not careful about being sterile when putting the CIDRs in, it maybe just some sort of vaginal infection caused by the CIDR.

Also, last I checked, most vets don't charge for a phone consultation and most vets don't mind talking to their clients.

 

[kenny thomas]

Milkmaid, how does the lutalyse treat the infection? Not disagreeing just do not completely understand. I have always given antibotic and lutalyse but maybe I did not need to.

 

[KNERSIE]

Not MM, but the prostaglandin alone isn't going to stop an infection, but it will stimulate the smooth muscles in the uterine wall to contract and hopefully help expell whatever foreign objects, pieces of placenta or puss there still may be. If there is a viable corpus luteum (usually from 5-7 days after last heat) it will also cause the CL to regress starting the next heat cycle and thus also opening the cervix which will also help with drainage.

I'm not sure how the absence of a CL will have an effect on how the smooth muscles of the uterine wall reacts to the prostaglandin.

Just as a side note, the last breeding season was the first I used CIDRs and since I was still out of action then the vet AId for me. If the bullstring wasn't completely clear he gave a shot of oxytetracyline at time of AI. According to him it will clear up mild infections caused by the CIDR before the fertilised egg reaches the uterine body and will help reduce early embryonic deaths.

 

[Avalon]

UPDATE: I called the vet. They do not think is a uterine infection but may be damage to the vaginal walls. They say that if it were a uterine infection that she would stink and be discharging nasty stuff all the time, which she is not. I'm giving in and will have my son haul her to the vet friday to make sure and get her treated. I'm sure glad I trade off printing to the vet. I just hate walking in and paying them anymore than what I have to.
Thanks for the nudging folks.

 

[regolith]

They say that if it were a uterine infection that she would stink and be discharging nasty stuff all the time, which she is not.

I don't think that's true. Unless we're thinking of two different things here...
Shortly after calving, cows sometimes discharge nasty-smelling pink fluids for a few days. But this is 60 days - what I usually see is infrequent discharge of white pus which as far as I can tell has no smell at all (I don't have much sense of smell tho...). You'd be more likely to see the pus when the cow is on heat than any other time.
This is metritis (inflammation of the uterus):
http://cowcalfandvet.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/metritis/

The cow in the link has been treated, but unsuccessfully.

 

[rockridgecattle]

here's the deal and we have worn this t shirt with this situation.
A hard pull such as this on a heifer can cause re breeding problems. It can damage the walls and uterus. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet if you want a live calf, a cow that can breed back and a healthy cow.
You did not want to pay the vet bill when she tried to calve. Now look at what it has cost you
-a vet bill for infection. Cost?
-a dead calf Cost $500-600.00
-treatment for sick cow so far? $15.00- $30.00?
-a cow that might not breed back and head to slaughter. Sell her for $400-500, to buy a replacement $800-1100
-cost to feed the cow during medication withdrawal if she does not breed back? cost?

-cost of a c section $350.00

Sorry to sound rough, but if you are going to have livestock, sometimes you need to make use of a vet, cost efficient in the long run.

 

[msscamp]

When I went to put the CIDR in, I noticed that it was unusally awkward getting it to the cervix. when I pulled the gun out there was blood on it.

This, coupled with the hard pull and "extremely invasive" means of pulling the dead calf should have been your first clue that you needed to call the vet if you want to keep this animal in production.

This was 15 days after her last heat so I know she was not sluffing. Then when I pulled the CIDR yesterday. There was an unusual amount of puss which came out with the CIDR.

This should have been your second clue to call the vet.

What would you guys do in this situation? Go ahead and breed her and see what happens? or treat her with something? If so what?
Thanks for any input.. I just hate calling the vet..

Get over your reluctance to call the vet, because it goes with the territory!!!!! Yes, it is an expense no one wants. Yes, it costs money. But the need will arise (and has in your case), it is the best way to find out what is going on with an animal such as this, and it is your best bet to keep this animal healthy and in production. Puss is generally an indication of infection, and anytime you see puss in an internal situation should be a very clear sign that you need to CALL THE VET!!!!

 

[robert]

The way to eliminate frequent calls to the vet is to cull the problems. An example, went out the other morning, a heifer was going around with her tail up discharging what appeared at first to be just a string of water sac but on closer inspection contained placenta as well, called the vet and we got a live calf (soon to be steer calf) and the heifer cleaned and mothered the calf but it will be the last calf that heifer produces, come weaning she's beef. You have to give the vet a fighting chance of getting a good result, too often we have neigbors who complain about how they got a huge vet bill and a dead calf but when you get the story you find out they screwed around for a few hours before they even called the vet and all hope was lost anyway. We used to give heifers a second chance but it seemed every time we did they would reward us by kicking us in the ass again not too far down the road.

 

[Avalon]

here's the deal and we have worn this t shirt with this situation.
A hard pull such as this on a heifer can cause re breeding problems. It can damage the walls and uterus. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet if you want a live calf, a cow that can breed back and a healthy cow.
You did not want to pay the vet bill when she tried to calve. Now look at what it has cost you
-a vet bill for infection. Cost?
-a dead calf Cost $500-600.00
-treatment for sick cow so far? $15.00- $30.00?
-a cow that might not breed back and head to slaughter. Sell her for $400-500, to buy a replacement $800-1100
-cost to feed the cow during medication withdrawal if she does not breed back? cost?

-cost of a c section $350.00

Sorry to sound rough, but if you are going to have livestock, sometimes you need to make use of a vet, cost efficient in the long run.

DANG IT! My brother is the Vet. He is coming out today. I just hate it when he says, so you couldnt handle it yourself this time huh?

 

[bigbull338]

im sure my vet is mad to.because we only call him if its a C-section or a calf that we cant get turned right or legs we or head we cant get to.

 

[showmomof2]

Get a new vet!

 

[3waycross]

The way to eliminate frequent calls to the vet is to cull the problems. An example, went out the other morning, a heifer was going around with her tail up discharging what appeared at first to be just a string of water sac but on closer inspection contained placenta as well, called the vet and we got a live calf (soon to be steer calf) and the heifer cleaned and mothered the calf but it will be the last calf that heifer produces, come weaning she's beef. You have to give the vet a fighting chance of getting a good result, too often we have neigbors who complain about how they got a huge vet bill and a dead calf but when you get the story you find out they screwed around for a few hours before they even called the vet and all hope was lost anyway. We used to give heifers a second chance but it seemed every time we did they would reward us by kicking us in the ass again not too far down the road.

What was it about this delivery that makes that heifer "beef". Maybe I missed something. Sounds like you saw her in labor and called the vet. Now for some reason she is a cull. Did you leave something out in this story.

 

[robert]

I'll refer you to the last line of my post, given heifers and cows that couldn't do the basics right second chances before and every single time they've flunked again. This particular animal was slipping her placenta 2 weeks short of her due date, wasn't showing any particular inclination to go into labor (it was 3 hours between calling the vet and them actually arriving) got a small live calf that is already a couple hundred bucks in the hole.

We'll fatten the heifer in the fall after weaning, steer the calf and call it even. Plenty more heifers to replace her. I'm sure there are lots of folks who wouldn't think twice about giving her a second chance, whatever, you can make any excuse you like to keep a cow in the herd, end of story

 

[3waycross]

I'll refer you to the last line of my post, given heifers and cows that couldn't do the basics right second chances before and every single time they've flunked again. This particular animal was slipping her placenta 2 weeks short of her due date, wasn't showing any particular inclination to go into labor (it was 3 hours between calling the vet and them actually arriving) got a small live calf that is already a couple hundred bucks in the hole.

We'll fatten the heifer in the fall after weaning, steer the calf and call it even. Plenty more heifers to replace her. I'm sure there are lots of folks who wouldn't think twice about giving her a second chance, whatever, you can make any excuse you like to keep a cow in the herd, end of story

Much better explanation. I agree with your descision.

 

[jka300]

here's the deal and we have worn this t shirt with this situation.
A hard pull such as this on a heifer can cause re breeding problems. It can damage the walls and uterus. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet if you want a live calf, a cow that can breed back and a healthy cow.
You did not want to pay the vet bill when she tried to calve. Now look at what it has cost you
-a vet bill for infection. Cost?
-a dead calf Cost $500-600.00
-treatment for sick cow so far? $15.00- $30.00?
-a cow that might not breed back and head to slaughter. Sell her for $400-500, to buy a replacement $800-1100
-cost to feed the cow during medication withdrawal if she does not breed back? cost?

-cost of a c section $350.00

Sorry to sound rough, but if you are going to have livestock, sometimes you need to make use of a vet, cost efficient in the long run.

I got a better alternative, $2 followed by a bang! :lol:

But seriously, the vet is the best choice for these situation.