2 Year Old Beefmaster Bull - 2 pics - Opinions Please

[East Caney]

This is Orr 509, owned by Jerry Orr in Ravenna, TX. This bull was sired by Casey 2-54 out of one of Mr. Orr's first-calf heifers. What are your thoughts?

This bull was the next bull born after Orr 508 (I posted a picture of him after I purchased him...see the "Out with the old, in with the new" post. I think this bull is longer with a tighter sheath and a bit heavier muscle.

Opinions please.

 

[msscamp]

He does look long, and he looks to be pretty well muscled, but I don't like his topline, I don't like his head - looks a bit 'horsey', at least in the 2nd picture - his flank and rump could be better, and he appears to lack girth. He also appears to be lacking in the scrotal area (not sure what the correct terminology is), and his legs bother me - but I'm not sure why. He also appears to have horns, which is not something I would want in my herd - I detest dehorning.

 

[East Caney]

Msscamp,

The first time I saw these two pictures, I felt his topline was his weakest link. As I've looked over that top picture more and more, I think it is a better representation of his topline. Could it still be better? Yes. Is it horrible, I don't think so. I've not seen this bull in person. A good friend who has says he does have a good topline. Again, I don't know how he was standing during the picture to say whether his topline is great or not. I'll say this. I like my bull's (Orr 508) topline better.

The bull's testicles look to be drawn up...I'm not sure of the weather conditions (temp) at the time of this photo. I see it was after Spring green up, but that doesn't say much. I'll tell you this, with his sire being Casey 2-54 "The Casey Bull", and his dam being bred using Lasater genetics, I don't foresee any problem with early maturity. In fact, I was in a pen of 17 heifers that were 8-9 months old on Mr. Orr's ranch. Several of them were cycling (the weaned bull calves wouldn't give them a break).

Horns are something that can be expected from the original beefmaster genetics. Not all animals will be horned, but one can expect the majority to be. I don't mind dehorning a few animals for what I feel I get in genetics.

Oh, it does seem like he may have his foot turned in. Knowing the breeder's practices, I'm sure that's not regular. I've a great portion of his cow herd. They all seem to have good structure and sound feet.

Keep the replies coming, please.

 

[msscamp]

Msscamp,

The first time I saw these two pictures, I felt his topline was his weakest link.

I don't think his topline is his weakest link, I think his lack of girth and seemingly poor flank is his weakest link. He has no depth to him. His topline is just the icing on the cake, so to speak.

The bull's testicles look to be drawn up...I'm not sure of the weather conditions (temp) at the time of this photo. I see it was after Spring green up, but that doesn't say much. I'll tell you this, with his sire being Casey 2-54 "The Casey Bull", and his dam being bred using Lasater genetics, I don't foresee any problem with early maturity. In fact, I was in a pen of 17 heifers that were 8-9 months old on Mr. Orr's ranch. Several of them were cycling (the weaned bull calves wouldn't give them a break).

I'm not sure where you're located, but spring green-up around here usually means temps in the 80's, possibly low 90's, and scrotums are generally not drawn up at that time of year. A cold snap, perhaps? Our heifers were usually cycling en masse by 7 months of age. Are Beefmaster's a later maturing breed?

Horns are something that can be expected from the original beefmaster genetics. Not all animals will be horned, but one can expect the majority to be. I don't mind dehorning a few animals for what I feel I get in genetics.

I don't do dehorning - period! Anything else, no problem, but when it comes to dehorning - find someone else, because I flat refuse! I believe I can find what I'm looking for, as far as performance goes, without having to deal with dehorning - and if that is not the case, so be it!

Oh, it does seem like he may have his foot turned in. Knowing the breeder's practices, I'm sure that's not regular. I've a great portion of his cow herd. They all seem to have good structure and sound feet.

No, it isn't. I can't put my finger on what it is about his legs, but there is something that is not right about them.

Keep the replies coming, please.

 

[East Caney]

I'm in northeast Texas. The weather here is peculiar all the time...never know what you're going to get. Last year, we were in the 90s in March, this year I think it was mid-late June before we ever hit 90 degrees. It's hot now, though....but don't mistake this for complaining about the weather. Only one person I know that controls that. I just try to line up in accordance with His will.

Again, as far as horns go, everyone has a preference. I never plan on running animals with horns. They'll always be dehorned (maybe tipped). However, I know the horn has nothing to do with the product...and as long as the next guy (running stockers or feeders) doesn't have to worry about injury from the horns (because they've been removed), there's no real issue.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

They look to be scurs to me. Put him on a polled cow and you'll probably be ok.

His head shape comment I don't quite understand. Brahman influenced cattle generally have a longer face if that is what you mean by "horsey".

He looks pretty good to me. If I were to criticize him I would ask that his hooks to pins be a bit more level instead of falling off like they do.

Again, that is a Brahman influenced trait. One that we are fighting in my Santa herd.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

Concerning calving ease, I've heard this. I also know that by leveling off the hooks to pins you will increase your YG. What is he going to sell more of, steers and cull heifers or breeding stock. Personally, I sell more steers and cull heifers, so YG is more important to me.

Sure, it is a trade off, but personally I have never had a problem with calving. Actually, I haven't pulled a calf in 15 years, knock on wood. I also pay no attention to calving ease epds. The hard core calving ease breeder will eventually breed their cattle to the point that they can't have a larger calf. I am more concerned about pelvic area than shape when it comes to calving difficulty.

I have also heard Brahman influenced cattle can limit the size of their unborn calf. Another one is that Brahman influenced cattle have a more oval shaped bone rather than round and this helps with their calving. Truth or old wives tales we may never know.

Most studies that compare the calving ease of different breeds focus on the breed of the bull and not on the breed of the cow.

 

[East Caney]

Our heifers were usually cycling en masse by 7 months of age. Are Beefmaster's a later maturing breed?

Breeds with Brahman influence are generally said to be later maturing. I don't have a clue when his heifers cycled first. I just know that several were cycling the day I was there (at 9 months). Seeing how the majority of heifers won't ever be exposed to a bull prior to 13 months of age, it seems a bit like a non issue. To my understanding, one should want the heifers to have cycled prior to the breeding season and not be in first estrous at that time...seems more than accomplished if anyone's heifers are cycling anywhere before 12-13 months of age.

 

[bward]

He is just awful....... Let me take him off your hands.

 

[East Caney]

He is just awful....... Let me take him off your hands.

Now what are you going to do up there with a foundation beefmaster? ...besides raise some good replacement females...and good meat...and maybe a good bull or two if you some good cows.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

He is just awful....... Let me take him off your hands.

Now what are you going to do up there with a foundation beefmaster? ...besides raise some good replacement females...and good meat...and maybe a good bull or two if you some good cows.

he does a great job with santa gerts up there. see no reason he couldnt with BM ;-)

 

[hogzilla]

I think overall he is a pretty good bull. I don't much like his
head in the second picture either and he does seem a little
small in the scrotal area. I wouldn't mind having him though.

Rob

 

[DOC HARRIS]

We have here a mature Beefmaster bull with fair phenotype. I would prefer seeing a deeper Heart Girth with accompanying spring of rib, a more level top line, and longer, more level rump. Hindquarter is not bad - not good. Sheath is acceptable for Beefmaster. Needs a broader head and shorter muzzle to indicate 'Fertility' in a beef bull - ANY breed. His hind leg(s) are showing a little too "posty" (straight or slightly rotated). His scrotal appearance seems a little reduced in size.

In judging ANY beef animal, we should take into consideration the genetic background breeding. If there are bos indicus genetics present, as is here in this Beefmaster, those phenotypic traits WILL present themselves, and should not be discriminated against in comparison with others of the same breed. Compare - but not discriminate against.

DOC HARRIS

 

[warpaint]

We have here a mature Beefmaster bull with fair phenotype. I would prefer seeing a deeper Heart Girth with accompanying spring of rib, a more level top line, and longer, more level rump. Hindquarter is not bad - not good. Sheath is acceptable for Beefmaster. Needs a broader head and shorter muzzle to indicate 'Fertility' in a beef bull - ANY breed. His hind leg(s) are showing a little too "posty" (straight or slightly rotated). His scrotal appearance seems a little reduced in size.

In judging ANY beef animal, we should take into consideration the genetic background breeding. If there are bos indicus genetics present, as is here in this Beefmaster, those phenotypic traits WILL present themselves, and should not be discriminated against in comparison with others of the same breed. Compare - but not discriminate against.

DOC HARRIS

Listen to the man! Good post Doc.

 

[Limomike]

I always like Doc's opinions... very good

 

[manaftergodsheart413]

To make a long story short he's everything I would like to have in a bull I have seen this bull in person and he looks very good and in my eyes pretty close to flawless but I know if you look hard enough you can find something wrong with any bull. Anyway he's a great looking bull who will probably produce the same who could definitely be an improvement for a lot of peoples herds.

 

[East Caney]

Well, I'll be pretty interested to see what his daughters (and even sons) look like. For one, I think that there is a lot to be said about a good picture...and I don't think the second picture is a good picture. I say that because the picture that I took of my bull and posted on here just happened to be the first picture I took...and it was a pretty good one. Since then, I've taken many bad pictures...if they move, don't move, look at the camera, look away. I've found it much easier to take a bad picture than a good one. So, that's my fault for posting a bad representation of the bull. I didn't do him any justice when I posted the second pic.

Having said that, good picture or bad changes nothing about the bull. It doesn't change his heart girth, or angle of his sheath, or muscling (though sometimes they are more difficult to see).

Overall, I don't see where this bull would hurt the cattle that I have now. He may not improve everything about them, but I don't see where he'd hurt them. Again, I think it's a lot of balance. A smart man and quality beefmaster breeder said this: "You're never going to find the perfect bull. You'll always be giving up something. And if you did find the perfect bull, you probably wouldn't even know it."

That doesn't mean a person should buy flawed animals. It means there will always be something about your animals that will make you say, "I can improve in this area."

I'll just say this. I think this bull is sufficient overall and has "good" phenotype. I wouldn't call him elite and I wouldn't call him average. I sure won't discriminate against his daughters when they become available. If they perform and raise excellent stuff, they can come home with me. Phenotype and performance have to show good balance. It's hard to sell something ugly regardless of how it performs. It's hard to sell something beautiful that performs like crap. Everyone wants something that looks good and performs good. Find the balance in your cattle, then refine them. Once you've found the balance, it only takes refinement, no need for an overhaul.

That's my two cents. (That may actually be more like a dollar's worth)