Spraying vs Mowing Pastures

Both if those are absolutely controlled by the grazing pressure.

Coming out of the conditions of last year it would not surprise me to have a bumper crop of dove weed. If rains hold and the stocking rate is good they should decline as grass builds over the next couple of years.

Just for reference though dove weed seed it 20% protein and high in energy. It is a main food source for dove, quail, and turkey.

Ragweed is an excellent source of high protein and energy for livestock and wildlife pushing up on 20% protein but it cant be allowed to mature late in the year. It needs a reset and grazing pressure.

https://www.noble.org/regenerative-agriculture/pasture-and-range/why-ragweed-isnt-the-problem/

Spraying is a quick, short term fix, that ensures dependence on spraying and a long, prosperous life for herb manufacturers.

When grass gets mature, growth stops. About the only thing thatll come up thru are considered undesirable. When grass is kept too short, about the only thing thatll do well are the undesirable.

Got to find a happy medium. Spraying isnt going to help the grass stand become healthier, but itll make it look better from the road. It is actually working against you.

This ground hasnt been mowed since 2022 and hasnt seen an herbicide since 2018 or 2019. I make them eat 90%+ of the stand. Gives an instant reset.

If unable to graze it off consistently mowing behind would be the best option.

ClinchValley86 said:

When grass gets mature, growth stops. About the only thing thatll come up thru are considered undesirable. When grass is kept too short, about the only thing thatll do well are the undesirable.

Got to find a happy medium. Spraying isnt going to help the grass stand become healthier, but itll make it look better from the road. It is actually working against you.

This ground hasnt been mowed since 2022 and hasnt seen an herbicide since 2018 or 2019. I make them eat 90%+ of the stand. Gives an instant reset.

If unable to graze it off consistently mowing behind would be the best option.

Click to expand...

Is that area behind the cattle on the other side of the fence, between the cattle and the buildings, about what you intend for it to look like "after" you move them out? Not saying anything about how you're managing, just being "observational" like any good grazier should... I see there ARE a fair amount of "undesireable" plants remaining there. Sparsely populated though... so "mowing behind", as you mentioned, might be a good option there. That may be an area that is managed differently for certain reasons then of course too... previously had been a sacrifice area where it had been "overgrazed", for example. Just looks like it's not as "ideal" as the area the animals are on in the picture.

If burning is good for the grass, we will have all of N Texas and Oklahoma thanking us after we burn down half of Texas and Oklahoma. Here the wind blows no less than 10-15 mph everyday out of the south. We don’t get enough rain to even have a fire pit except in the early spring maybe. I’d like to but too risky.

Texas Ranch Hand said:

If burning is good for the grass, we will have all of N Texas and Oklahoma thanking us after we burn down half of Texas and Oklahoma. Here the wind blows no less than 10-15 mph everyday out of the south. We don’t get enough rain to even have a fire pit except in the early spring maybe. I’d like to but too risky.

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I was just with people who burn there all the time. 10-15mph is good wind under the right right conditions. We will burn up to 20mph.

Search for a local Prescribed Burn Association in you area or burn schools. They are very informative. If you would like any help getting in contact with some one I would be glad to help.

Oklahoma is really pushing burning to help with cedar removal tobhelp with water capture and fire midigation. We will all be in OK soon for a big "burning convention". LoL

Brute 23 said:

Both if those are absolutely controlled by the grazing pressure.

Coming out of the conditions of last year it would not surprise me to have a bumper crop of dove weed. If rains hold and the stocking rate is good they should decline as grass builds over the next couple of years.

Just for reference though dove weed seed it 20% protein and high in energy. It is a main food source for dove, quail, and turkey.

Ragweed is an excellent source of high protein and energy for livestock and wildlife pushing up on 20% protein but it cant be allowed to mature late in the year. It needs a reset and grazing pressure.

https://www.noble.org/regenerative-agriculture/pasture-and-range/why-ragweed-isnt-the-problem/

Spraying is a quick, short term fix, that ensures dependence on spraying and a long, prosperous life for herb manufacturers.

Click to expand...

I agree with you on grazing and fire. But I disagree strongly on spraying being a short term fix. And I've done it both ways with my own money. Spraying kills the mother plant and a portion of the seed bank. Easier on equipment , fuel bill and can get places where the shredder can't. No it doesn't remove overmature grass. If you have to much of that on a regular you might have left money on table. Even if you need to let grass go to seed from time to time. That standing forage has grazing value come winter. Especially for someone with a cottenseed feeder. Im all ears though. If you want to tell me how killing the mother plant and the emerging seeds is short term.

Brute 23 said:

Both if those are absolutely controlled by the grazing pressure.

Coming out of the conditions of last year it would not surprise me to have a bumper crop of dove weed. If rains hold and the stocking rate is good they should decline as grass builds over the next couple of years.

Just for reference though dove weed seed it 20% protein and high in energy. It is a main food source for dove, quail, and turkey.

Ragweed is an excellent source of high protein and energy for livestock and wildlife pushing up on 20% protein but it cant be allowed to mature late in the year. It needs a reset and grazing pressure.

https://www.noble.org/regenerative-agriculture/pasture-and-range/why-ragweed-isnt-the-problem/

Spraying is a quick, short term fix, that ensures dependence on spraying and a long, prosperous life for herb manufacturers.

Click to expand...

On the dove weed. Yes it's excellent for wildlife. Birds anyway. Cattle generally won't touch it. It is one of many weeds that will adapt to mowing by crabbing out flat and producing seed very fast. If you want more dove weed. Mow it.

There are some weeds which spraying is about the only way to control. Back in the 80's I worked some for a rancher in the Okanogan with a knapweed issue. back then he was spending $10,000 a year to helicopter spray it. I asked him why not just do a controlled burn. He told me it come back stronger after a fire. Well I have a little bit of it here. After the fire 2024 which burned every thing I have much more knapweed than I had before the fire. Fire seems to stimulate its growth and spreading.

ALL are tools in the toolbox, to be used judiciously... INCLUDING grazing. Far too many farmers/ranchers in the past have felt compelled to graze off everything a pasture would grow, like we do when we make hay (necessarily in that case, because of how the hay equipment is designed to function vs. the way that the cow is designed to BE ABLE TO graze). We've been conditioned to think THAT is how we get the full "yield" from a field... without realizing what that method does to the plant, and the soil, and the soil biological and hydrological functioning.

With the cow, you CAN end up with some of the growth grazed and some of it not even being touched (consumed) at all, basically... so you CAN end up with a mosaic of dramatically varying forage heights of remaining vegetation behind the animals................. OR........... you CAN leave them on that field until they've literally consumed everything, right down to the dirt. If you have some grasses that are "tall" and some that are "intermediate" and some that are "short", erratically all across the entire field, THAT helps not only the forages to recover and compete with the forbes, and to "reseed" themselves, but it also helps the other grassland dependent species... like birds and insects, etc. And these all then contribute to a healthier environment, and a more vibrant and prolific overall forage production... over time.

With a mower, you necessarily end up with an even cut height, no matter what tool you use... all one height, all across the cutting width of the machine... and ultimately, the field. You can "vary" the cutting height by raising or lowering the cutterbar, but not across the width of the cutting head, and generally, it all ends up the same height all across the field, and usually, that's a pretty short cutting height too (sometimes precisely because we are intent on "getting the maximum yield" when we harvest... because that's "the most efficient"). You lose the diversity of the vegetative cover (including that completely erratic mosaic of height of the cover) that can be achieved with the cow though.

Don't get me wrong, I use mowing as one of the tools in my toolbox. And I'll use herbicides occasionally too, sparingly, selectively, preferably spot spraying. And I've operated on some properties where fire has been used (CRP mostly... and that management strategy has not impressed me). But by far, my most preferred tool is the cow, hands down! And then electric fence and polywire, to help with the management of the cow.

I picked up the Herbicide today and if you don't consider the time or labor involved mowing is definitely cheaper than spraying. I think there's going to be a balance and each field will respond different to each method. I like clean pastures and don't enjoy looking at the weeds.

worldsgreatestlover said:

I agree with you on grazing and fire. But I disagree strongly on spraying being a short term fix. And I've done it both ways with my own money. Spraying kills the mother plant and a portion of the seed bank. Easier on equipment , fuel bill and can get places where the shredder can't. No it doesn't remove overmature grass. If you have to much of that on a regular you might have left money on table. Even if you need to let grass go to seed from time to time. That standing forage has grazing value come winter. Especially for someone with a cottenseed feeder. Im all ears though. If you want to tell me how killing the mother plant and the emerging seeds is short term.

Click to expand...

As you say, I too have done both with my own money. Stop spraying and see how fast the weeds come back. Put a disk in the ground and see how much seed bank you killed. That is the proof of how short term herb is. Herb is like bondo, its a quick, easy, cheap method, that any one can do, to cover up a problem that will likely rear its head down the road.

Ive done it both ways. Go find my posts from years ago whre we sprayed over a thousand acres of Grazon Next HL and killed every thing that wasn't grass. It created the best monoculture of poor nutritional grasses you have ever seen and to the untrained eye it looks like great management.

I actually saw cows eat dove weed in its early stages when I put them in a small area with hot wire this year. They took it down low and I moved them right as we got a rain. The grass actually out paced the dove weed and there is very little in that area. Im working on expanding that to a larger scale in certain areas because as said, they will get thicker and thicker over times.

Look at the patch burn type methods of grazing. You don't burn every thing. You have this year burned, 1yr burned, and 2yr burned. It gives you that diversity of the fresh, nutritious grass, all the way to the some what stock piled grass for seeding out. It addressed all the concerns you brought up that go have gone through my mind also.

Its hard to change because we have been so marketed to. Weeds.. we sell you herb. Bugs.. we sell you pest. Too much grass.. we sell you equipment for that. Higher nutrition.. we sell you fertilizer. Its an expensive rat race when you are spraying out feed then buying it back in the form of commercial feed or fert.

Fire builds soil, improves grass nutrition, helps control woody plants and weeds, help with parasites, and more... all in one shot, at a fraction of the cost of all those things.

RDFF said:

Is that area behind the cattle on the other side of the fence, between the cattle and the buildings, about what you intend for it to look like "after" you move them out? Not saying anything about how you're managing, just being "observational" like any good grazier should... I see there ARE a fair amount of "undesireable" plants remaining there. Sparsely populated though... so "mowing behind", as you mentioned, might be a good option there. That may be an area that is managed differently for certain reasons then of course too... previously had been a sacrifice area where it had been "overgrazed", for example. Just looks like it's not as "ideal" as the area the animals are on in the picture.

Click to expand...

That isnt my property. Line fence is between the two. Though I do hope to be next in line to lease it.

First pic was rather weedy prior to grazing, but they eat that too. 2nd pic is ideal. I dont have much weeds though that they wont eat. The thick stem towards ground they usually leave. Which can become a problem of its own hurting eyes and such, but they regrow from that stem too. Theres a trade off i dont care what we do. But this way costs me no money, just 15-60 minutes a day.

Ill get you an after-graze pic of the field next to the neighbor for comparison.

Brute 23 said:

As you say, I too have done both with my own money. Stop spraying and see how fast the weeds come back. Put a disk in the ground and see how much seed bank you killed. That is the proof of how short term herb is. Herb is like bondo, its a quick, easy, cheap method, that any one can do, to cover up a problem that will likely rear its head down the road.

Ive done it both ways. Go find my posts from years ago whre we sprayed over a thousand acres of Grazon Next HL and killed every thing that wasn't grass. It created the best monoculture of poor nutritional grasses you have ever seen and to the untrained eye it looks like great management.

I actually saw cows eat dove weed in its early stages when I put them in a small area with hot wire this year. They took it down low and I moved them right as we got a rain. The grass actually out paced the dove weed and there is very little in that area. Im working on expanding that to a larger scale in certain areas because as said, they will get thicker and thicker over times.

Look at the patch burn type methods of grazing. You don't burn every thing. You have this year burned, 1yr burned, and 2yr burned. It gives you that diversity of the fresh, nutritious grass, all the way to the some what stock piled grass for seeding out. It addressed all the concerns you brought up that go have gone through my mind also.

Its hard to change because we have been so marketed to. Weeds.. we sell you herb. Bugs.. we sell you pest. Too much grass.. we sell you equipment for that. Higher nutrition.. we sell you fertilizer. Its an expensive rat race when you are spraying out feed then buying it back in the form of commercial feed or fert.

Fire builds soil, improves grass nutrition, helps control woody plants and weeds, help with parasites, and more... all in one shot, at a fraction of the cost of all those things.

Click to expand...

I burned a place this March. Given our strange spring weather and a lack of precip, but the burnt ground did terrible compared to the mowed ground. The fire brought on a bunch of weeds. Onr positive I noticed was that the 12 to 18 inch wide fescue plants only shot up 2 to 8 seed heads compared to the 60+ leaves on the plant. Ive heard of happy plants that stop producing seed... seems the fire did something of the sort. That farm had rested for 3 years prior to burn.

Thats my only experience burning so dont know what to think.

ClinchValley86 said:

I burned a place this March. Given our strange spring weather and a lack of precip, but the burnt ground did terrible compared to the mowed ground. The fire brought on a bunch of weeds. Onr positive I noticed was that the 12 to 18 inch wide fescue plants only shot up 2 to 8 seed heads compared to the 60+ leaves on the plant. Ive heard of happy plants that stop producing seed... seems the fire did something of the sort. That farm had rested for 3 years prior to burn.

Thats my only experience burning so dont know what to think.

Click to expand...

My first question would be what was your metric for judging it? Did you test quality of forage in each, mineral content in each, have you seen what the area producing a year after the burn, etc. Not picking on you but not all benefits are just seen with the eye immediately.

When did you burn by chance? Weeds have this negative connotion but they are nature's scab. Many of those weeds are pulling heavy metals from you soil, adding nitrogen, and doing all sorts of other neat jobs. They are also prepping the soil for grasses to grow. Weeds are your indicator for what's going on in your pasture and are there for a reason.

The interesting thing that I am going to be testing is some of these other methods for grazing with burning. We typically burned and then rested but there is some good info out on gains with stockers and cow calf guys putting animals on ground immediately after being burned. That Blazing Grazing and other Wilder things podcast has a section where they were talking about it and having dry weather after a burn and how it impacted the grass.

Even with fert, herb, disking, rotating, etc no rain makes them all look like a bad idea and rain makes you look like a genius.

ClinchValley86 said:

That isnt my property. Line fence is between the two. Though I do hope to be next in line to lease it.

First pic was rather weedy prior to grazing, but they eat that too. 2nd pic is ideal. I dont have much weeds though that they wont eat. The thick stem towards ground they usually leave. Which can become a problem of its own hurting eyes and such, but they regrow from that stem too. Theres a trade off i dont care what we do. But this way costs me no money, just 15-60 minutes a day.

Ill get you an after-graze pic of the field next to the neighbor for comparison.

Click to expand...

Nice.

Remember this, weeds and burning have been around long before us and will be around long after. No matter how much we try to spray them out or suppress fire mother nature will always bring them back our to the soil. She has redundancy after redundancy built in like the birds, a flood, wind, etc. Nature does not do any thing to harm itself. It will always send fungus or weeds or fire or some thing to start the healing process and return it to the natural state. Its a waste of money trying to fight that system because the minute you stop... she will start undoing it like she has since the beginning of time.

Brute 23 said:

I was just with people who burn there all the time. 10-15mph is good wind under the right right conditions. We will burn up to 20mph.

Search for a local Prescribed Burn Association in you area or burn schools. They are very informative. If you would like any help getting in contact with some one I would be glad to help.

Oklahoma is really pushing burning to help with cedar removal tobhelp with water capture and fire midigation. We will all be in OK soon for a big "burning convention". LoL

Click to expand...

I totally agree with you on how good burning is for the land but since my county has a burn ban in affect for (no exaggeration) 51 weeks out of the year and most years, all year I can’t take the chance.

Every place I've bought has been a disaster when I got it. We sprayed every year for probably 10 yrs straight and the pastures continually got better each year. We added fences and rotational grazing as we could and this also helped. The last 3 years we continued to rotate but didn't spray. We did shred a pastures as needed but not allot. After not spraying for 3 years I feel like I stepped back 5 yrs. Nothing improved at all and I've got about 40 acres I've nearly lost to locust regrowth. I doubt I'll go back to trying rotational grazing alone, we'll spray, mow, or both from now on.

Lucky said:

Every place I've bought has been a disaster when I got it. We sprayed every year for probably 10 yrs straight and the pastures continually got better each year. We added fences and rotational grazing as we could and this also helped. The last 3 years we continued to rotate but didn't spray. We did shred a pastures as needed but not allot. After not spraying for 3 years I feel like I stepped back 5 yrs. Nothing improved at all and I've got about 40 acres I've nearly lost to locust regrowth. I doubt I'll go back to trying rotational grazing alone, we'll spray, mow, or both from now on.

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Mine was a wreck when I took it over. Overgrown in cedar and broomweed.. in places so thick there wasn't a blade a grass. I cleared a good many acres with a chainsaw because that's all I had at the time. It's a different place now. Yes of course the weeds will come back if you do nothing, but I do get to skip years now. One thing for sure i know what got it like it is, and if I see the weeds coming back im going to spray.

There is a lot more to grazing properly in relation to improving soil than just moving animals around. It requires intent and a ton of understanding in terms of aoil biology and the natural nutrient cycle.

Weeds are not bad, in fact id say they are vital. My cows eat almost everything. Just cant give them much of an option.

They cannot be on ground for more than 4 days if you want things to keep getting better. Overgrazing is the worst thing possible. Its the be all, end all. It has nothing to do with forage height post-grazing, and everything to do with giving forage ample time for recovery.

I know in 2020 I was using a hammer to get step in posts in the ground. Now, we are in drought conditions, neighbors ground is rock hard. My unsharpened pigtail posts almost fall into the bone dry and cracked up ground. Thats says a lot to me. I wish I had taken some baseline tests.

Both chemical fertilizer and herbicides destroy soil biology and the natural nutrient cycle.

It definitely isnt for everyone, but myself, I think its the only way producers will afford this stuff in the future. Especially newcomers.